old man emu Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It amazes me that when one begins the study of another language in a classroom situation, the syllabus always places great emphasis on the conjugation and declension of verbs and nouns to ensure that the what is said or written is correct in terms of case and number. However, the English syllabus ignores these building blocks of our own language. I do not want to suggest that I am a White Supremist, but if English is to be the language of international commerce and relations, then we should see to it that persons for whom English is their first language are kept to a high standard compared to those for whom it is a second or third language. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_S Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I try my best to speak correct English, but I have no idea what any of those words mean... 'declensions', 'gerunds' 'ablatives', are they even words? Hi Ignition, LOL - they certainly are, and I had to learn them as a 13 year old at school in order to speak and write Latin. I also had no idea what they were in English, but we use them all without knowing about them because in English Language lessons these days they don't feel the need to teach the parts of language. I can explain them all if you really want me to......I just hope I don't turn into my Latin master (he wasn't my favourite teacher). Cheers Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I thought that "walla" was what pigs did in mud!I never cease to be amazed at the new non-words that appear every day. Even the ABC announcers seem to be on a downward trajectory as regards use of English and grammar. The biggest issue is that people are losing the ability to express themselves coherently and unambiguously. YES! I used to just scream at the radio when I heard politicians using the singular and then talking about plural of whatever. Now the bloody ABC announcers do it, too! I think it all started to go down hill when schools stopped teaching grammar and reading became infra dig. Despite my tireless efforts to change his expression, my eldest son continues to tell people: "He would of ...." Aarrrgggghhh But this leads me to a more serious issue as regards diction and expression. I was flying back from Shepparton to Coldstream last weekend and overflew Locksley so gave the mandated calls which include nearby Mangalore. I heard several calls from a pilot who is most likely training at Mangalore and for whom English is not a first language. I simply couldn't understand what he was saying even though he repeated it a couple of times. He was apparently inbound to Mangalore and I climbed to 6500 both because of the bumps and to be sure of missing him. I'm not xenophobic... I have a Japanese daughter-in-law and grandson, and I work with a culturally diverse clientelle... but it seems inherently dangerous to me to have someone pottering around the sky who can't make his whereabouts and intentions understood. English is now the universal language of pilots so it seems not unreasonable to expect that those who come here to train as commercial pilots should be able to make their calls properly before they are turned loose on the rest of us. kaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Don't appologise kaz. You're OK. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 .. but the kids are once again being led astray by the needs of small keyboards into shorthand words like ya... One of the local businesses was advertising to fill a staff member position and was totally disgusted to receive one application written totally in SMS contractions. No need to tell anyone where that one was filed. Not really kg, I've sat across the table from many senior company executives, and cringed in horror to see a million dollar deal go out the window as a colleage got the name of their company wrong, or worse referred to their competitor's product by mistake, then laughed it off.... One deal in which I was involved, quite a few years back, comprised selling a system integration with product (ie. a solution) to Mercedes Benz. Apparently, as they told us, they were underwhelmed when one of our competitors had referred to their proposal as "the Rolls Royce solution"! We were awarded the contract. ...But this leads me to a more serious issue as regards diction and expression. I was flying back from Shepparton to Coldstream last weekend and overflew Locksley so gave the mandated calls which include nearby Mangalore. I heard several calls from a pilot who is most likely training at Mangalore and for whom English is not a first language. I simply couldn't understand what he was saying even though he repeated it a couple of times. He was apparently inbound to Mangalore and I climbed to 6500 both because of the bumps and to be sure of missing him. .. The other side of that coin is the pilot who is quite understandable and makes the correct calls, until you ask a question. At that point communication breaks down because comprehension is absent, as is the ability to assemble meaningful sentences that have not already been learned from the VFRG. Just another reason for ensuring one's own calls are using the approved phraseology... to be understood by those who know the phrases but not the language. PS. Kaz, I think the penny has dropped... I think I met you a while back when you were visiting Yarrawonga. You have a dog that travels with you. You, I and a couple of others were chatting in front of the hangars. It may have been a couple of months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_S Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 One deal in which I was involved, quite a few years back, comprised selling a system integration with product (ie. a solution) to Mercedes Benz.....they were underwhelmed when one of our competitors had referred to their proposal as "the Rolls Royce solution"! LOL - brilliant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deskpilot Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I'm frequently adding the correct English spelling to the 'spell check' facility. Occasionally I have to resort to the large dictionary that stands at the side of my monitor and, dependent on with whom I'm corresponding, I even resort to text talk, 'cause I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I wonder if they teach those spelling helpers such as: 'i' before 'e', except after 'c' ? Had to recite that one to Old Ma Emu this morning because she thought 'piece' looked odd when she wrote it down. What about '-ise' and '-ice' ? The way I remember it is that, if the word is a verb, it has '-is-' in it, and, if it is a noun, it has '-ice' ( to practise a skill, or a 'practice' as in a type of behaviour.) And I notice (don't ya luv English spelling?) that the spell checker in this program only recognizes one spelling for the homophone 'practise/practice and doesn't like the 'u' in behaviour. Damned spellchecker! Probably assembled by some humourless B. Old Man Emu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I wonder if they teach those spelling helpers such as: 'i' before 'e', except after 'c' ? Had to recite that one to Old Ma Emu this morning because she thought 'piece' looked odd when she wrote it down.... Funnily enough this was one topic on "QI" last week. Apparently, although we all learned that aide memoir, it is actually wrong for more English words than it is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Funnily enough this was one topic on "QI" last week. Apparently, although we all learned that aide memoir, it is actually wrong for more English words than it is correct. If you use "i before e except after c when pronounced "ee" it covers most. In most cases the problem is just not spending enough time on words that give you trouble ("haven't got time now will check it another day" and that particular word always causes the same confusion next time it's needed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 And I notice (don't ya luv English spelling?) that the spell checker in this program only recognizes one spelling for the homophone 'practise/practice and doesn't like the 'u' in behaviour. Damned spellchecker! Probably assembled by some humourless B. Old Man Emu "ize" instead of "ise" is another one. These are due to using an American spell checker. Many programmes these days give you the option of using British, or even Australian. One trap for people who decide they aren't going to learn, but just use a spell check is that when they use a wrong word it gets through and looks ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Right up to MS Office '97 if you selected the "Australian Dictionary", it used the American one. You had to select "British English" if you were wanting Australian! From memory OfficeXP was the first release in which it was correct. That probably didn't help for people who didn't know the difference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil_S Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 "ize" instead of "ise" is another one.These are due to using an American spell checker. Many programmes these days give you the option of using British, or even Australian. One trap for people who decide they aren't going to learn, but just use a spell check is that when they use a wrong word it gets through and looks ridiculous. ...and too many people rely on a spell checker when they really need a grammar checker. Just because "effect" is spelt correctly doesn't mean it is correct - a lot of times I see it used when they should use "affect". "Principle" when it should be "principal", "compliment" when it should be "complement"....etc etc. It's such fun being a pedant . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 You wouldn't rely on Microsoft's Grammar Checker...would you! I just disable it. The spell checker is ok as it picks up a lot of the spelling mistakes my keyboard makes ;-) due to the fact that they are usually not actual words at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 You wouldn't rely on Microsoft's Grammar Checker...would you! I just disable it. Not at all on a Mac! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 That's cause Mac people couldn't handle full words Tomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 PS. Kaz, I think the penny has dropped... I think I met you a while back when you were visiting Yarrawonga. You have a dog that travels with you. You, I and a couple of others were chatting in front of the hangars. It may have been a couple of months ago. Once met, never forgotten, David ....kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 That's cause Mac people couldn't handle full words Tomo Says he who does the same 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naremman Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I grew up in a generation when the motivation to get spelling and grammar right was avoiding an impact upon thy backside. No such motivation exists today. I observe the frustration of my wife, of a similar vintage to myself, attempting to teach and mentor her students in an environment of social media where the basics are so easily discarded. My late first wife was a journalist and she used to read the parish pump newspaper with a red highlighter in hand. It was astounding how much of the copy would be highlighted red!! "Duel Baptisms" was the absolute clanger. Baptismal water at 10 paces!! She was inclined to "cite" this publication for getting site and sight wrong in three consecutive editions. A dog-eared copy of the Macquarie Dictionary is a permanent fixture alongside the computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 ...and if you are American why use one word when many will do , eg "ongoing emergency situation" an emergency to the rest of us...., or "at this point in time" ie now, and the (non)word burglarize , ie burgle. I could go on..... When I call North America to make a credit card purchase, they always ask for an "expiration date". What is wrong with "expiry"? I thought that "walla" was what pigs did in mud!The biggest issue is that people are losing the ability to express themselves coherently and unambiguously. I agree, many journalists and radio programs have opted for less precise language rather than more precise. The media is lapsing into generalisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 But this leads me to a more serious issue as regards diction and expression. I was flying back from Shepparton to Coldstream last weekend and overflew Locksley so gave the mandated calls which include nearby Mangalore. I heard several calls from a pilot who is most likely training at Mangalore and for whom English is not a first language. I simply couldn't understand what he was saying even though he repeated it a couple of times. He was apparently inbound to Mangalore and I climbed to 6500 both because of the bumps and to be sure of missing him. Do you mean Bangalore or Mangalore, kaz3g? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 When I call North America to make a credit card purchase, they always ask for an "expiration date". What is wrong with "expiry"? They are using American English which they are entitled to do so we have to comply with their language when in their country. Most of my work is offshore with American Companies, and they are my customers, so my emails need to talk about Tires, Gasolene, Center, Program, but to their Australian divisions in Australian English. It's not that hard to learn really, easier than French or Japanese. The US word I like most is momentarily as in "We will be landing momentarily" or "I'll send it momentarily" What might amaze some people is that American English is the older, dating back to the emigrants of the 1600's who retained much of the spelling and pronunciation from that century, being isolated from Europe, while the English changed and refined their language due to interaction with Europe, the slowest to change being the Irish who were the poorest and least able to travel. Bill Bryson wrote a great book with thousands of examples on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 The US word I like most is momentarily as in "We will be landing momentarily" This sounds like a touch and go maneouvre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 It does eighty. The first time I heard it was in a United Airlines 747 coming in to Honolulu. I wondered if Oahu was just too small..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Personally i live by the mantra of "never use a large word when an exiguous one will do"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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