motzartmerv Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The 230 at my satellite school had another engine failure. The pilot was flying at altitude 9500 feet when it suddenly stopped. The restart attempt couldnt even turn the prop, so a sieze looks likely. He put it down in a paddock and did a hell of a job. The nosewheel collapsed, I dont know about any other damage as yet. The pilot walked away. I just made a trip to Gundy 2 weeks ago to do some licence test's, and this guy was one of them. His forced landings were a little sad, so we made him do some more dual before cert issue. This guys paperwork probably hasn't even arrived yet and he's had an engine failure. Id bash the engine manufacturer a bit, (seeing as its lesss than 200 since factory rebuild, 80 hours since factory mod circlips performed,30 hours since the manifold intake fell off) but it would do no good. Over it. all I can do is train the absolute bejesus out of people who intend to fly jabs. I know the thinking is always be prepared incase the engine fails, but we have to face facts and train these guys with the thinking "its absolutely going to fail... No ifs, buts, fly it like its gunna happen in the next 5 seconds. ALWAYS...Because its inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I don't think anyone's going to listen either. You can't play Russian Roulette because inevitably someone's not going to make it. My advice is sell the Jabs and buy something else for training. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 So how's the student holding up from the experience? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 My plan to phase them out has just been fast tracked. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 My plan to phase them out has just been fast tracked. Good work, very responsible action;unlike some others 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Geez Andy, I am glad that everything turned out well...but.... You have been very open with sharing your incidents with the Jabs. Now as far as I can see, there are three possible situations: 1. Systemic failure by whoever conducts your maintenance. I'm sure that you have already looked into that. 2. Systemic failure in training, leading to pilot abuse/misuse of the engine and early failures. I'm sure you have looked at that too. 3. Systemic failure by the engine manufacturer, whether during parts manufacture, assembly, or design fault. Either way, I would feel confident that you and your business would have looked very carefully into the first two options. I just would like to hope that the manufacturer is looking into their option just as thoroughly. I'm certainly not a Jab basher, and enjoyed my one flight in a Jab 15 years ago. I would love to see them succeed, especially being an Aussie business. But if their engines can't reach TBO in a training environment, then you would have to question why they are certified for training. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeroGirl Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 All they need to do is put a Rotax in them, and make the rudder bigger and they would be a great little aircraft. I would never buy a Jab, not with a Jab engine. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 1. Systemic failure by whoever conducts your maintenance. I'm sure that you have already looked into that. 2. Systemic failure in training, leading to pilot abuse/misuse of the engine and early failures. I'm sure you have looked at that too. 3. Systemic failure by the engine manufacturer, whether during parts manufacture, assembly, or design fault. yea bandit thanx for that. The maint has been conducted by several different engineers, in several different locations due to this being a satellite school. For a 'sysmatic' problem there would need to be a system.. ;)The only thing the 3 engine failures ive en counted in the last 12 months have in common is the engine. Different aircraft, different engineers, trained by different instructors.The factory have their hands all over this engine. Systematic failure in training..Well, id certainly hope not.See above point 3...;) Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Sorry to hear about this happening again to one of your schools aircraft Andy.I glad that the pilot is OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Yea he's fine. he's still planning to buy an acft, powered by something made in germany I believe..;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 good on him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Yea he's fine. he's still planning to buy an acft, powered by something made in germany I believe..;) Or Austria ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 lol..Possibly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burlc Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I would be calling Jabiru,sending the engine to them for a complete strip and inspection (at their cost) and they can report to you whether the engine failed due to incorrect maintanence or other reasons. Only then will you know the reason for the failure. It is a worry why these engines ar'nt making 400 hours,most second hand planes for sale have a new engine fitted at some stage. Does'nt look good for Jabiru, but if the aircraft is maintained incorrectly by the owner then one could understand. I know that this is not the case for you because you must use a lame. I guess the only way you will find out if your engine is being maintained correctly is if you have Jabiru do the strip down and report. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Mozz, What I don't understand is that there is usually almost nothing on Jab's in the Crash Comic, yet there are a substantial number of them VH registered. Surely if this is an endemic issue they should be showing up there and thereby inviting input from CASA or related controlling bodies. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 A lot of skilled pilots got them down plus a lot of lucky pilots got them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 Mozz,What I don't understand is that there is usually almost nothing on Jab's in the Crash Comic, yet there are a substantial number of them VH registered. Surely if this is an endemic issue they should be showing up there and thereby inviting input from CASA or related controlling bodies. Regards Geoff Capt, id beg to differ there. Places like Camden are a good case study, they have RAA and GA maintained Jabs. The failure rate doesn't seem to favor one or the other. Not when being maintained by engineers anyway. Self maintained by a dentist mite be a different story ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Capt, id beg to differ there. Places like Camden are a good case study, they have RAA and GA maintained Jabs. The failure rate doesn't seem to favor one or the other.Not when being maintained by engineers anyway. Self maintained by a dentist mite be a different story ;) But surely they would start to feature in the engine failure section of the crash comic if the VH registered machines were having similar problems to those reported in these forums? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 They have to be reported first......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 But surely they would start to feature in the engine failure section of the crash comic if the VH registered machines were having similar problems to those reported in these forums? Numbers... Simple... 10-1 if not more would be my guess at the ratio of raa - VH jabs. That's probably very conservative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Another one down in the West today too. See Pud's post. rgmwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 My point is that any VH registered problems of the type that Mozz reports above would be more likely to be publicly reported, and they don't appear to be (at least via the Crash Comic), and even at a 10:1 ratio that is still a shipload of Jabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 So you can live in hope Capt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Tubb, I'm not knocking what Mozz & others are reporting. Just trying to understand why this has not built into a major issue in the VH Jab fleet, given that if the issues are as bad as reported by Mozz and the others, it surely must be cropping up there and therefore would be attracting regulatory attention that might force it to be solved for the rest of us. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Its good logic Mr Rat .......................... I'm with you on that (maybe as said - those incidents have not been reported (can't think of any other reason ?)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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