Head in the clouds Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 If MIKE thinks they are the same he is wrong..... No, that's not what was meant. Mike understands that being censured is effectively just a case of it being stated and recorded by the others that they felt Ed was wrong. However, Mike said that in his opinion, Ed is so convinced that he did act according to procedure, that he was acting with the approval of the Board, that they had given their agreement when Ed said "we MUST act now", that if Ed is now censured Mike thinks Ed will walk. Thin skinned or otherwise. On reflection I have to admit that if I were in Ed's position and truly believed I had done all I could to make my intention clear, and it then transpired I had still not made myself clear, I'd probably give up on being able to do so in the future, and walk too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share Posted June 13, 2013 Ed took on the office of the presidency conditionally based on unanimous support from the board, it now appears he has lost that support. I can't see Ed having any option but to step down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 The security issue I discovered after looking into Airsick's post has been fixed by Bas already. Airsick's link has been restored. Read it and vote for him (personal view and not endorsed by this website). The link is available without logging in by design (and by limitation of WordPress). The other issue was more serious so I hid the link which might have exposed it. Normal service has been resumed...... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drifterdriver Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 After reading your informative posts airsick, its almost enough to make a one-eyed Queenslander think about moving south of the border to vote. Although I couldn't stomach having to cheer for the blues at the next state of origin. Go the maroons!! Nick 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryc Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Far from being concerned at the tone of this thread I'm excited knowing that despite the gross lack of communication from the board to the members somehow we can gleam a bit here and a bit there and come up with a shadow of what's going on and it appears we have a number a serious issues. There are a couple of comments I would like to make. I've employed staff for the best part of thirty years and my experience tells me if I hear rumblings of discontent I need to address it now, not tomorrow or next week. If I wait till someone comes to me it's too late. So when I hear this constant call to ring your reps I know firstly it won't happen and secondly it's too late. Why can't we learn that communication starts with the board and our reps not the other way around, I remember Ian making a comment about this very thing, "if I get back on the board I'll show you what communication is'' or something to that effect. With the obvious heightened awareness of the members at the moment just imagine if we all rang our reps. While this idea continues that we are responsible for communication, the board has an excuse not to start. Secondly, I don't know Ed and cannot comment either way on his suitability for the president's Job, but I can say this, nothing I have said would lead to the need for Ed to resign, the same as facthunter's comment. The board should censure him and he should accept it then get on with what so urgently needs doing. Just a thought, Communication is a skill developed and if it's lacking on the board why not ask for a retired member to assist the board in this regard. 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I'm not a friend of Ed'sI'm not close to Ed I did not get my information from any Facebook lounge I have not suggested you are lying And for TerryC's information, I was not attempting to lead this thread into a direction to suit some unstated, but disappointing purposes. There has been a comment made to me by a credible source, that Ed Herring would only take on the Presidency under certain specific conditions, wrote them out and asked for agreement or disagreement from each board member and that activation of an SMS, or words to that effect, and the appointment of the SMS Manager, or words to that effect, was specifically mentioned as one of those conditions, and that the board members gave a unanimous "Yes" approval. So, yes, if I took the word of my source, I would know the answer to the question, and I could have made a statement based on that, but I wanted to be sure. The reason the answer is so important, is that if the board members answered "yes", then that was a board vote and can be seen to be a board vote, and the interminable discussion that the President wasn't acting in accordance with the Constitution goes away, the basis for your Censure motion. By answering truthfully, board members are not discredited at all, I'm sure they just didn't understand what they did. I'm not saying my source is correct and it was a unanimous decision, I'm just asking for an open confirmation of Yes, or No to settle everyone down. Turbo, A post on a forum is not a board vote. It is a post on a forum. We have a formalised process to vote on our board and that has not yet occurred. Regards, Jim Tatlock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfaRomeo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 TurboGood on ya. You have done some research and went and discovered something. I do like your "Post 180", the next thing how many here on this forum have read it and digested it. Now everyone read Turbo's post 180. I have been away working and have to digest what is here. What I have learnt there is a lot of missing correct information. Post later when I can have a breather. Regards, Keith Page. Well, Keith if you thought a lot of post 180, you perhaps haven't caught up with post 203 where post 180 was closely inspected and some balance and quite a few corrections offered - none of which have been repudiated by TP. After you've read both 180 and 203 please comeback to us with your insights. Thanks AR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I already have nominated. See my post here - http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raa-2013-general-elections-for-board.61062/#post-289036And my 'formal' election statement here - slarti EDIT: link removed until I can get a serious security misconfiguration addressed on the RAA website. Michael - have you got another link to your statement which isn't in the uploads area? OK - RAA website fixed. Here's your link back: http://www.raa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Michael-Monck-statement.pdf (you'll have to login to see the latter document) - no you won't (by design). If elected then I will. In the meantime I have been talking to various board members along the way offering some guidance and input based on my knowledge and experience (keeping in mind I provide advice to boards in a range of business environments, my clients have included BHP, Telstra, NRMA, Clean Energy Council and so on). I've even provided input to the discussion on a new org structure which was forwarded to RA-Aus management a couple of weeks ago and sent to some board members just this morning (I'd attach it here but it exceeds the file size limit). I'm not gunning for the removal of Ed but I do support a censure motion as it means there is some accountability coming into the board. It is, however, important to note that a censure motion is not a motion for dismissal. I'm not gunning for Myles either, he could very well be the correct person for the job but how do we know? What I am looking for is an association that can manage its affairs in a manner consistent with the expectations of members, regulators and any other relevant stakeholders. I haven't seen this in years and I am not seeing any positive movements towards this now. Cheers, Mick. It would be interesting for you to let everyone know how you managed to get all Member's Email Address which you have been using to mass-mail your Election material... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlfaRomeo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 It would be interesting for you to let everyone know how you managed to get all Member's Email Address which you have been using to mass-mail your Election material... Well we all know how Middo got his list for his campaign against the General Meeting. And we all know who paid Middo's postage to get himself 300 odd proxies to cover his rear end. Compare those actions to the group of 300+ who requisitioned the General Meeting completely at their own expense and dragged the Board kicking and screaming to Queanbeyan. MIddo likes to whinge about how much the General Meeting cost RA-Aus but it was a fraction of what it cost the 180 odd who paid their own way to Canberra. And, SAJF what evidence do you have to support such a scurrilous (and false) accusation? I think you owe Airsick an apology instead of being an apologist for those who have all but destroyed RA-Aus. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 A thread on the failure of RAA to get the SMS it is obligated to under the CASA Deed of Agreement, should not be virused by electoral campaign issues - it's way too critical to the future of 10,000 members. However, contravention of the Privacy Act is a very serious matter, and must be reported to the appropriate authorities. Apart from the severe penalties, any official should be dismissed and any candidate disqualified. I notice Don is considering one of the allegations as scurrilous (and false), and the other as a given, but both allegations equally need to be reported to the appropriate authority for investigation and if necessary prosecution, where each will have his opportunity to defend himself. You can't scream for Due Process on the one hand and act as a Lynch Judge on the other, and expect to have credibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Turbs, I think there is no doubt at all where the mailing list for Middos letter came from. He was obliged to notify members of the EGM, so there is no privacy issue. There is an issue of whether the letter was a balanced summary of information to members, but that is a much more subjective question (and I imagine Middo wrote it as he believed it to be true - which still might not be as balanced as you might wish!) As to the other allegation... first I have heard of it, but then I haven't received any election material in my email. I am not sure if I should feel left out. It is a fairly damaging allegation, so I would expect some evidence or substantiation from SAJabFlyer - the Privacy Commissioner would expect more than a unsubstantiated allegation before investigating dodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 I'm neutral on this, it is utterly wrong for people to be able to dip their fingers into people's addresses, records, fines, warnings etc. and use private data for a campaign or vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 It would be interesting for you to let everyone know how you managed to get all Member's Email Address which you have been using to mass-mail your Election material... Wow SAJF, I see that you remain an anonymous "keyboard warrior" (to use your words) but I see that you are now a soldier for the old guard boys-club who have been running this false claim for months, and I see that you are now using it to try to damage a candidate for the upcoming Board elections. That is a disgrace. It is the "old-boyz club" within RAA who have driven the organisation into the ground, have been the centre of the dysfunction and have been trying to perpetuate this garbage, so you must be one with them, or blindly regurgitating this falsehood in trying to maintain the status quo, & trying to keep the clique together. I'm surprised that the Moderators have allowed you to make such unfounded claims, but they have so I'm willing to take you to task, as almost every time that you stick your beak back into this thread, the worth and facts of the discussions go through the floor. Regards Geoff ................... but who oh who are you, really? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Totally agree Turbo. A similar allegation was levelled against one of the election applicants over the Feb 9th meeting. The RA-Aus board took it very seriously and conducted a IT forensic investigation of the offices and did not establish any breach or unlawful release of email details (to the best of my knowledge). I have spoken to the member and he explained how he has lawfully compiled a list of email addresses. I would be careful what I accused other members of on a public forum if you cannot substantiate the allegation. There is no Parliamentary Privilege here! As Turbs has stated this thread is steering off the topic somewhat. Perhaps SAJF wants to start a dedicated thread re: emails? Regards, Jim Tatlock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 It would be interesting for you to let everyone know how you managed to get all Member's Email Address which you have been using to mass-mail your Election material... Firstly, I don't have everyone's addresses. My email list started at around 30 people and now has a sum total of 133 addresses on it. Many people received my email and asked that I forward it on to others that they know but I never kept those email addresses. Others simply hit forward themselves and it quickly became apparent that hundreds of people saw my message. My original list was supplemented with a bunch of addresses of those that have asked to be kept up to date with my thinking on current issues. A thread on the failure of RAA to get the SMS it is obligated to under the CASA Deed of Agreement, should not be virused by electoral campaign issues - it's way too critical to the future of 10,000 members.However, contravention of the Privacy Act is a very serious matter, and must be reported to the appropriate authorities. Apart from the severe penalties, any official should be dismissed and any candidate disqualified. I notice Don is considering one of the allegations as scurrilous (and false), and the other as a given, but both allegations equally need to be reported to the appropriate authority for investigation and if necessary prosecution, where each will have his opportunity to defend himself. You can't scream for Due Process on the one hand and act as a Lynch Judge on the other, and expect to have credibility. I was informed by Paul Middleton of two thing at the February meeting. Firstly, he said that I "pissed off a lot of people" with my email. When I noted that those people who had invested thousands of dollars of their savings into an aircraft only to be told that computer glitches were preventing them from renewing their rego were equally miffed to find that RA-Aus had failed to maintain adequate standards, he then told me the AFP had been called in to investigate a breach of security. Unless Middo was lying I can only assume that this investigation was completed and so far I haven't been dragged into a police station or a court room. The reason for this is simple, I never hacked into the system and stole addresses. Middo also accused staff members of providing me with information and I will stand here with my hand on my heart once again and state that no staff member ever provided me with contact details. Turbs,I think there is no doubt at all where the mailing list for Middos letter came from. He was obliged to notify members of the EGM, so there is no privacy issue. There is an issue of whether the letter was a balanced summary of information to members, but that is a much more subjective question (and I imagine Middo wrote it as he believed it to be true - which still might not be as balanced as you might wish!) As to the other allegation... first I have heard of it, but then I haven't received any election material in my email. I am not sure if I should feel left out. It is a fairly damaging allegation, so I would expect some evidence or substantiation from SAJabFlyer - the Privacy Commissioner would expect more than a unsubstantiated allegation before investigating dodo I rest my case. (bold is mine) As an aside it is also worth noting that RA-Aus is required by law to maintain a member register. This register must contain names, addresses, etc. of each and every member of the association. Further to this, such a register must, again by law, be made available to each and every member of the association. There is nothing whatsoever to stop any one of us from requesting a copy of the register which RA-Aus must make "available for inspection by members at reasonable times". In summary: I don't have email addresses for everyone on the RA-Aus mailing address, Middo said there was an AFP investigation into a breach of security and apparently none was found, We are all entitled to view the member register in its entirety. But thanks for asking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 However, contravention of the Privacy Act is a very serious matter, and must be reported to the appropriate authorities. Apart from the severe penalties, any official should be dismissed and any candidate disqualified. I notice Don is considering one of the allegations as scurrilous (and false), and the other as a given, but both allegations equally need to be reported to the appropriate authority for investigation and if necessary prosecution, where each will have his opportunity to defend himself. In the absence of a separate thread, I would just like to note that breaches of privacy principles are not criminal matters and "penalties" do not exist. A confider whose information is released by a confidant can sue for damages ...ie It is a civil matter. In order to obtain damages, loss must be demonstrated and quantified. Hard to imagine what loss is sustained in having your email address used in the manner suggested, especially if it was not published to other recipients. I would personally be much more cautious of publishing unsubstantiated allegations impugning the reputation of an individual where damage is much more easily demonstrated. Finally, any matters pertaining to criminal penalties including fines are matters of public record and open to anyone to search. Kaz 1 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Firstly, I don't have everyone's addresses. My email list started at around 30 people and now has a sum total of 133 addresses on it. Many people received my email and asked that I forward it on to others that they know but I never kept those email addresses. Others simply hit forward themselves and it quickly became apparent that hundreds of people saw my message.My original list was supplemented with a bunch of addresses of those that have asked to be kept up to date with my thinking on current issues. I was informed by Paul Middleton of two thing at the February meeting. Firstly, he said that I "pissed off a lot of people" with my email. When I noted that those people who had invested thousands of dollars of their savings into an aircraft only to be told that computer glitches were preventing them from renewing their rego were equally miffed to find that RA-Aus had failed to maintain adequate standards, he then told me the AFP had been called in to investigate a breach of security. Unless Middo was lying I can only assume that this investigation was completed and so far I haven't been dragged into a police station or a court room. The reason for this is simple, I never hacked into the system and stole addresses. Middo also accused staff members of providing me with information and I will stand here with my hand on my heart once again and state that no staff member ever provided me with contact details. I rest my case. (bold is mine) As an aside it is also worth noting that RA-Aus is required by law to maintain a member register. This register must contain names, addresses, etc. of each and every member of the association. Further to this, such a register must, again by law, be made available to each and every member of the association. There is nothing whatsoever to stop any one of us from requesting a copy of the register which RA-Aus must make "available for inspection by members at reasonable times". In summary: I don't have email addresses for everyone on the RA-Aus mailing address, Middo said there was an AFP investigation into a breach of security and apparently none was found, We are all entitled to view the member register in its entirety. But thanks for asking! See? A simple answer to my question, without anger and vitriol! Done - and Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 See? A simple answer to my question, without anger and vitriol! Done - and Thank You No matter how you now try to back out or sugar coat it, your post # 308 was a scurrilous, shameful & untrue accusation masked in what you say was a "question". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 See? A simple answer to my question, without anger and vitriol! Done - and Thank You Was it a question? I read an unsubstantiated allegation intended to damage a person's reputation. dodo 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drifterdriver Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Well I hope we can all agree that its better to have the question asked and thoroughly answered than rumour and innuendo doing the rounds. Thanks SAJab for helping to clear the air by asking in the first place and Airsick for providing a comprehensive response. Nick 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 13, 2013 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Firstly, I don't have everyone's addresses. My email list started at around 30 people and now has a sum total of 133 addresses on it. Many people received my email and asked that I forward it on to others that they know but I never kept those email addresses. Others simply hit forward themselves and it quickly became apparent that hundreds of people saw my message.My original list was supplemented with a bunch of addresses of those that have asked to be kept up to date with my thinking on current issues. I was informed by Paul Middleton of two thing at the February meeting. Firstly, he said that I "pissed off a lot of people" with my email. When I noted that those people who had invested thousands of dollars of their savings into an aircraft only to be told that computer glitches were preventing them from renewing their rego were equally miffed to find that RA-Aus had failed to maintain adequate standards, he then told me the AFP had been called in to investigate a breach of security. Unless Middo was lying I can only assume that this investigation was completed and so far I haven't been dragged into a police station or a court room. The reason for this is simple, I never hacked into the system and stole addresses. Middo also accused staff members of providing me with information and I will stand here with my hand on my heart once again and state that no staff member ever provided me with contact details. I rest my case. (bold is mine) As an aside it is also worth noting that RA-Aus is required by law to maintain a member register. This register must contain names, addresses, etc. of each and every member of the association. Further to this, such a register must, again by law, be made available to each and every member of the association. There is nothing whatsoever to stop any one of us from requesting a copy of the register which RA-Aus must make "available for inspection by members at reasonable times". In summary: I don't have email addresses for everyone on the RA-Aus mailing address, Middo said there was an AFP investigation into a breach of security and apparently none was found, We are all entitled to view the member register in its entirety. But thanks for asking! Thanks for being so frank Michael, that balances things up nicely 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 13, 2013 Author Share Posted June 13, 2013 Lest we forget the sterling efforts of Paul "just a volunteer" Middleton with his unsubstantiated allegations for making this thread split possible. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Michael The one point that wasn't raised...... Have you sent any bulk (or indeed less than bulk) RAAus related email of the type SAJF is alluding to since submitting your nomination.......I haven't received anything and I know I'm on your list (by choice) but then preaching to the choir is generally a waste of energy that may be better spent on others (WITHIN THE STATE OF NSW!!!!) Perhaps SAJF is referring to the earlier emails which spoke to progress, or lack thereof, with regards to issues discussed or to be discussed at the Feb 9th meeting. Those as I recall spoke nothing of elections because you hadn't determined at that time that you or I or any of our group would stand as representatives. We all had great hope back then, that the Feb 9th meeting would allow the changes in behaviour we were looking for and it was only after that meeting, and the stalled progress of the structural review that we all determined what it is that we needed to do. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Did you close the poll FT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 I think I might have chosen the 7 day option on the poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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