Gnarly Gnu Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 An interesting development, although not hugely applicable to aircraft GPS systems one would imagine (or hope). "Swiss company u-blox just devised a chip that keeps you on course when the satellites drop out, using the most old-fashioned of navigation techniques: dead reckoning. The u-blox 3D Dead Reckoning chip uses a bevy of accelerometers, gyroscopes, and speed sensors to calculate a car's exact location, no GPS signal needed." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykR0TWL-_oA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 wow that is really interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomis Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 On 28 July 2004, a Piper PA-31T Cheyenne, VH-TNP, with one pilot and five passengers, on a private, instrument flight rules flight from Bankstown to Benalla, collided with terrain 34 km south-east of Benalla. All occupants were fatally injured and the aircraft was destroyed by impact forces and fire. Instrument meteorological conditions existed at the time and the pilot had reported commencing a Global Positioning System (GPS) non-precision approach (NPA) to Benalla. The experienced pilot was familiar with the aircraft and its navigation and autoflight systems. The flight did not follow the usual route to Benalla, but diverted south along the coast before tracking to the northernmost initial approach waypoint BLAED of the Benalla Runway 26L GPS NPA. While tracking to BLAED the aircraft diverged left of track, without the pilot being aware of the error. The air traffic control Route Adherence Monitoring (RAM) system triggered alerts, but controllers believed the aircraft was tracking to a different waypoint and did not question the pilot about the aircraft's position. The destruction of the aircraft navigation and flight control systems did not permit verification of their operational status. The investigation found that instructions to controllers relating to RAM alerts could be ambiguous. Actions were taken by Airservices Australia to enhance alerts and clarify controllers' responses to them. The occurrence drew pilots' attention to the need to pay careful attention to the use of automated flight and navigation systems and also demonstrated the need for effective communication between controllers and pilots to clarify any apparent tracking anomalies. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau's (ATSB) final report was released on 7 February 2006. In July 2008, during the subsequent coronial inquest, additional information about the possibility of dead reckoning navigation by the GPS receiver was provided. The ATSB investigation was reopened to examine that possibility and an amended report issued. That investigation found that dead reckoning navigation could not be positively established as there were inconsistencies between dead reckoning principles and the recorded radar data. Neither could it reconcile how a pilot would continue navigation by GPS with the alerts and warnings provided by the GPS receiver and the instrument indications. As a result of the reopened investigation, the ATSB issued a safety advisory notice alerting users of GPS navigation receivers to take appropriate action to ensure familiarity with dead-reckoning operation and any associated receiver-generated warning messages. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 How acurate would accelerometers, gyros etc be. I agree that they could be as accurate as Ded Reckoning, but with DR you have to allow for wind drift, your reckoning only gives you a no wind position and you allow for wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 How acurate would accelerometers, gyros etc be. Actually, they can be Very accurate if done carefully. For years, aircraft used inertial navigation systems as a major nav system particularly when crossing areas where there were no navaids, like oceans. Gyros and accelerometers were at the heart of inertial nav platforms. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongie Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Yes. The b2 bomber used an inertial navigation system before the advent of GPS,to great effect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongie Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Err, sorry... B1 bomber 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 That is how commercial airlines get all over the place...the inertial nav systems are now the BACKUP for the GPS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Err, sorry... B1 bomber Are you talking about bombers or bananas Hongie? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomis Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 They don't work as a backup. Most aircraft use an IRS/ GPS/DME,DME mix to get a point through the FMS. So they use all the equipment together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hongie Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Are you talking about bombers or bananas Hongie? Haha touché Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 "Are you thinking what I am thinking B1?, I think I am B2, it's BOMBING time!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I'm pretty sure the F111 used INS, well the early ones certainly did, that may have changed with the avionics update done in the nineties. Andy Saywell would know for certain . I was just a lowly airframe fitter/aircraft technician Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 So did you clean out those dirty fuel tanks Dazza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 So did you clean out those dirty fuel tanks Dazza? Yup I fixed fuel leaks inside the tanks and got $10 000 compensation for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffd Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 hey u didn Yup I fixed fuel leaks inside the tanks and got $10 000 compensation for it. t kno a terry beaurman by any chance u he did same thing .and b 4 u type it yes i know the were lots in the raaf lol used to get the same questions about telstra and the army reserve 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I can not recall his name, i was F111's from Feb 1990 to April 1998 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I can not recall his name, i was F111's from Feb 1990 to April 1998 Hi Dazza I lost a mate, John Holt many years ago in an F111. Lost engine and couldn't get out of the cockpit. Sad...wife and kids. Kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffd Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 yea not good hey we must not forget those who lose their lives in training and while in serviced r still those who lost their lives in the service of their country and their familys have paid that price as well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi DazzaI lost a mate, John Holt many years ago in an F111. Lost engine and couldn't get out of the cockpit. Sad...wife and kids. Kaz Sorry to hear that Karen, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 I'm pretty sure the F111 used INS, well the early ones certainly did, that may have changed with the avionics update done in the nineties. Andy Saywell would know for certain . I was just a lowly airframe fitter/aircraft technician The F111's did use INS before the AUP program, a big box in front of the navigator with knobs and readouts like old analogue odometers. They were susceptible to drift, and the navigator would constantly update as visual fixes were available. That was with big old mechanical gyros though, I have no idea how sensitive the new laser ring gyros are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Hi DazzaI lost a mate, John Holt many years ago in an F111. Lost engine and couldn't get out of the cockpit. Sad...wife and kids. Kaz A8-133 from ADF serials First Flight 22/10/68 Delivered to RAAF 25/07/73. Served with 6 Sqn. Crashed, 29/09/77 near Evans Head NSW (6 Sqn) after a bird flew through the windscreen at low level during bombing pass. Crew module separation activated at approximately 520 kts whilst aircraft descending and outside survival envelope. RAAF Ejection number 50. Crew of SQNLDR John Holt (pilot) and FLTLT A.P. "Phil" Noordink (pilot - undergoing conversion) killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 A8-133 from ADF serialsFirst Flight 22/10/68 Delivered to RAAF 25/07/73. Served with 6 Sqn. Crashed, 29/09/77 near Evans Head NSW (6 Sqn) after a bird flew through the windscreen at low level during bombing pass. Crew module separation activated at approximately 520 kts whilst aircraft descending and outside survival envelope. RAAF Ejection number 50. Crew of SQNLDR John Holt (pilot) and FLTLT A.P. "Phil" Noordink (pilot - undergoing conversion) killed. Thank you very much M61. All those years have gone by and I still remember him ...and his family when it happened. Kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted February 14, 2014 Author Share Posted February 14, 2014 Yup I fixed fuel leaks inside the tanks and got $10 000 compensation for it. That's a worry, hope you are OK mate. Don't want you to end up all unhinged and rambling like f_t. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 That's a worry, hope you are OK mate. Don't want you to end up all unhinged and rambling like f_t. So far , so good lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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