Malaysian Airlines MH370

[Old Koreelah]

. Really? were you going to stop eating beef? driving your car? flying your plane? using electricity?...

After being raised on a dairy farm I gave up mammal products thirty-five years ago. My carbon footprint is about a third of the average Australian's, but I can easily reduce it.

 

...All the carbon tax was going to do is stifle the economy and create poverty.

- That's errant rubbish. Other government policies have done far more damage to industry and living standards. Have a good read of independent comment on the current budget.

 

...What is our estimated carbon emission, 1% of the world emissions? And what about the scientists who say man made carbon is minuscule compared to other natural events such as volcanoes?

Australia is the world's biggest exporter of coal. Our whole economy has been skewed out of whack by the boom in mineral exports to China. The effect on our exchange rates has hastened the demise of our manufacturing industry. Like a junky, we can't get enough of those coal dollars, and we're trading away the farm to maintain our living standards.

 

If that is true then cause of the problem needs to be addressed, places like China, the US, I can't see how imposing a tax on Australians would have any effect on the climate.

... So we in Australia can carry on with our high living standard and expect the rest of humanity to do something about it?

We're on borrowed time. Our descendants will be reading this discussion. Are you sure you are doing the best for them?

 

 

[rankamateur]

Can't they Nev? Rewind five or six hundred years and 98% of the experts were still predicting that the earth is flat, and that you sailed off into the sunset, straight over the edge!!!

Might not help your argument Nev, but even you can't deny it is true!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I gave up mammal products thirty-five years ago. My carbon footprint is about a third of the average Australian's, but I can easily reduce it.

I eat veal to keep methane impact to a minimal level.

 

 

[octave]

600 years ago 98% of experts did not believe the earth was flat - search for flat earth myth. Scholars and scientists have known of the spherical earth since the 14th century.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Can't they Nev? Rewind five or six hundred years and 98% of the experts were still predicting that the earth is flat, and that you sailed off into the sunset, straight over the edge!!!

It was 7 or 800 years ago so there, you know nothing

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I'm having baked beans for dinner tonight but I planted a tree to offset the emissions.

 

 

[rankamateur]

While you are all hacking on about man made climate change, how can you possibly justify flying for recreation, or racing cars or dirt biking. I can justify it because I don't do enough of it to make one scrap of difference compared to the volcano belching away in Indonesia.

 

 

[Teckair]

Are you sure you are doing the best for them?

Well we are not on the grid most of our power comes from wind and solar, does that help?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Well we are not on the grid most of our power comes from wind ... does that help?

Not really, I have this theory about too many wind turbines actually disturbing the natural weather patterns.

 

Ground friction is a part of the geostrophic wind balance.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

600 years ago 98% of experts did not believe the earth was flat - search for flat earth myth. Scholars and scientists have known of the spherical earth since the 14th century.

...and thousands of years before that the ancient Greeks had calculated its approximate diameter. Lots of ancient and medieval navigators knew the flat earth theory was silly fantasy.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

While you are all hacking on about man made climate change, how can you possibly justify flying for recreation, or racing cars or dirt biking. I can justify it because I don't do enough of it to make one scrap of difference compared to the volcano belching away in Indonesia.

A valid point, Rank. One large volcanic eruption could spew out enough dust to reduce global temperature by as much as a concerted world-wide effort to reduce emissions. We can't predict what nature does, but we know the impact of our species. Each of us needs to pull his weight.

 

 

[rankamateur]

A valid point, Rank. One large volcanic eruption could spew out enough dust to reduce global temperature by as much as a concerted world-wide effort to reduce emissions. We can't predict what nature does, but we know the impact of our species. Each of us needs to pull his weight.

So are we all going to give up flying for fun, No I thought not!

 

 

[Guest Russell1]

I'm having baked beans for dinner tonight but I planted a tree to offset the emissions.

What brand of beans will you have...?

 

Russell1

 

 

[Teckair]

What brand of beans will you have...?Russell1

Beanz meanz heinz.

 

 

[Exadios]

They need to send a ship's navigator and a mathematician along with that Kiwi to the oil rig and work out where it went down.That is of course presuming they want it found .....

What's the geodetic position of the rig?

 

 

[Exadios]

Its very easy to prove Inmarsat`s projected arcs.Its very cheap to prove if they are right.They should do a trial and error method by sending an aircraft with similar performance characteristics up in the air and make it to fly exactly the same route they have predicted and note how the satellite will be pinging that aircraft.This is a cheap to prove if they are right than keeping on scanning the sea bed in an area which is not 100% is right.The fishermen reported a low flying big aircraft with landing lights on, meaning the aircraft was in Landing Configuration thereby flying slow maybe around 250knts.If it was flying slow then the aircraft is not far from Malaysia itself.That route has been made with assumption of aircraft in cruise speed 450knts or more.I strongly believe the aircraft is more north maybe in Indonesian waters or land.

In order to get a similar representation of the Doppler shifts the flight would have to synchronized with both the satellite's orbital signature and also gravity signature present at the time of the original flight. I haven't done the math but those multiple cycles can only come into that same phase relationship very infrequently.

 

In any case the physics and engineering are very well understood. So what unknown information do you think that a physical experiment would reveal?

 

 

[Exadios]

I understand they still believe it's in the southern Indian Ocean (the southern arc), just that the initial signals they picked up in the water were not from the black box. It was a confused message in the media, but then that would be normal... the intent is get get attention, sell some stuff.

I am an Electronics Engineer with hydrographic experience. I read a report that the acoustics 'pings' where man made but the carrier was not at the expected 38kHz but 32kHz. When I saw that I said, "Woops!" The carriers of deep water sonars are often at 1kHz multiplied by some power of 2. So 8kHz, 16kHz, 32kHz, ... etc. So I considered that the most likely source to be from a surface vessel.

 

 

[tafisama]

Eey eey I am tired now.Speculation after speculation.The Kiwi guy saw it guys.Did you read what the Emirates Boss said.He questioned where the Air force jets were.They should have intercepted the plane.I am trying to fall into a trance but failing.LOL.The English guy with that Marine research experience, remember he posted something that looked like the fin near an oil rig.What more do we want.This Inmarsat data seems to throw the equation out of hand.Could the Satellite still ping a sinking aircraft considering this sea is very shallow.Is it possible for waves to be transmitted in and out of shallow waters.Maybe long waves can. http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-where-were-the-fighters-asks-emirates-chief-20140602-39ehl.html

 

 

[Exadios]

. Really? were you going to stop eating beef? driving your car? flying your plane? using electricity?

All the carbon tax was going to do is stifle the economy and create poverty.

 

What is our estimated carbon emission, 1% of the world emissions? And what about the scientists who say man made carbon is minuscule compared to other natural events such as volcanoes?

Well, it is a fact that the carbon tax has been tialed for for over 25 years in the US (in the form of the SO_2 market) and found to work.

 

 

[tafisama]

In order to get a similar representation of the Doppler shifts the flight would have to synchronized with both the satellite's orbital signature and also gravity signature present at the time of the original flight. I haven't done the math but those multiple cycles can only come into that same phase relationship very infrequently.In any case the physics and engineering are very well understood. So what unknown information do you think that a physical experiment would reveal?

Flying the predicted arc will reveal if they got it right.If it is right then their data logs should match what they have assumed to be the flight path.If it goes off course then they will need to make adjustments.Trial and Error Method is the only way they can prove themselves right or wrong.Facthunter here said from the very first days they need to know the speed (more importantly ground speed) at which the aircraft was travelling at and its altitude.A slow flying aircraft would not have gone so far maybe halfway at most.

 

 

[Exadios]

Flying the predicted arc will reveal if they got it right.If it is right then their data logs should match what they have assumed to be the flight path.If it goes off course then they will need to make adjustments.Trial and Error Method is the only way they can prove themselves right or wrong.Facthunter here said from the very first days they need to know the speed (more importantly ground speed) at which the aircraft was travelling at and its altitude.A slow flying aircraft would not have gone so far maybe halfway at most.

No. You do not understand the origin of the Doppler signature. It comes from the the errors in the satellite's orbit and the the gravity signature expressed upon the satellite. These two sources are represented by two uncorrelated harmonic series. To replicate the data received on the original flight it would be necessary to wait for the phasing between these two series to be the same as it was on the original flight. I have not done the math but I would expect that we would need to wait a few hundred years for these two series to replicate the alignment.

 

As I say the physics and engineering is well understood. The trails you refer to have been done - in the 18th and 19th centuries.

 

 

[tafisama]

No. You do not understand the origin of the Doppler signature. It comes from the the errors in the satellite's orbit and the the gravity signature expressed upon the satellite. These two sources are represented by two uncorrelated harmonic series. To replicate the data received on the original flight it would be necessary to wait for the phasing between these two series to be the same as it was on the original flight. I have not done the math but I would expect that we would need to wait a few hundred years for these two series to replicate the alignment.As I say the physics and engineering is well understood. The trails you refer to have been done - in the 18th and 19th centuries.

If you say that then we have a big problem with this Doppler technic.My thinking is if they the predicted flight path is right we should have similar not the same data logs.I am very worried when you say the trails have been done in the 18th and 19th century.That mean s this is all wrong.Were we that advanced to be doing this.This just comes back to raise questions on the accuracy of the technic.I think they have done a very good job to be able to have the arcs but then why not simply do a Trial and Error Method to see how it goes.To me we have a starting point and its cheap and very safe to check it out by sending a plane up there from Malaysia 45minutes later turn west later north west then somehow do a turn south.They should compare real time logs and see how it goes.That is why the scientist used a Control and Experiment to prove any aspect in question.Once they become certain its okay then they can throw whatever resource they have into it.

 

 

[Teckair]

Well, it is a fact that the carbon tax has been tialed for for over 25 years in the US (in the form of the SO_2 market) and found to work.

What would their carbon emission be? Second largest on the planet? What rip-roaring success! And their economy another joke clearly an example we must follow.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Well, it is a fact that the carbon tax has been tialed for for over 25 years in the US (in the form of the SO_2 market) and found to work.

Oh yeah, just what struggling American manufacturing needs, another burden.

 

The progression is well underway towards cleaner, more responsible manufacturing worldwide, we are what we are now and the changes should be generational* rather than forced (other than the ones that obviously need forcing of course).

 

*Teach our Children to do better than us.

 

 

[Exadios]

What would their carbon emission be? Second largest on the planet? What rip-roaring success! And their economy another joke clearly an example we must follow.

The question is what would their Sulfer Dioxide emissions be? The answer is a lot lower than they otherwise would have been. This is why you never hear about Acid Rain anymore. This reduction is a result of the SO_2 cap and trade market. A CO_2 cap and trade market would work in exactly the same way.