dj_rex Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 With the weather being so perfect for flying, I thought it timely to get this link out there. Conducting a survey to see if the relaunch of the Sapphire LSA is warranted. http://www.mbbrinvestments.com.au/future-projects.html Please feel free to leave any and all thoughts and comments, and yes this is authorised by the Sapphire LSA's current manufacturer. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 I would love to see the Sapphire relaunched...just need to get flying schools online so that students can hire them...buy two single seaters for hour building and general hire for the price of one two seater. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_rex Posted May 11, 2014 Author Share Posted May 11, 2014 in case someone wasn't sure what she looks like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Why LSA. Why not certified with a Certificate of Airworthiness, not a Special COA as is the case with LSA. There are too many ongoing problems of ownership if the manufacturer goes out of business. I believe the Sapphire originally had a COA. It was / is a great little aircraft hitch was developed into a world class aerobatic aircraft called the Ultrabat that participated in the world aerobatic championship. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billwoodmason Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Yeh David, I saw an Ultrabat aerobatted at Mangalore many years ago and was fearful that the flex in the tail boom under "G" force was going to fold it in two. It didn't of course and was otherwise very impressive. Another got loose after a hand start one year and caused mayhem in the parking area for a short while. Ah for the old days !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Yeah Bill I remember the footage of the one that got away in the parking area. Remarkable no one was hurt. Are there any Ultrabats around anymore? I think they were all VH reg, well I guess they would have to be wouldn't they ... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_rex Posted May 12, 2014 Author Share Posted May 12, 2014 Hi David, Currently the Sapphire is classed as LSA. It would be easier to get it back in the air using it's existing COA. The Ultrabat distributorship was actually up for sale a while ago. I am not sure if it still is. I think the market for a pure aerobatic aircraft would be smaller, although if promoted perhaps a one make competition could be created.. I would assume all current Ultrabats are VH registered as RA-Aus doesn't allow aerobatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulh Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Some thoughts, from what I've read (never seen one close up) they are an attractive efficient little aircraft, perhaps some options could be considered:- Removable wings option for trailering would be an advantage Longer wing option for motor glider (especially suited to the electric option) Kit built option would open up more sales Price will be a major factor, other threads have expounded at length on cost factors etc and from those discussions whilst aircraft are never going to be cheap, if an albeit nice, single seater costs more than the other boys toys it's unlikely to sell enough volume (what's a sports bike, jet ski, 4WD, ski boat cost?) The sd1 mini plane is being sold in the US according to the Sky Craft web site for US $54,850 fly away, seems poor value for money when people seem to able build Savannahs for about that including an expensive 912uls But an Australian designed little motor glider would be very nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechfx Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The first Aussie company that sells an affordable electric aircraft with decent performance will be on to a winner. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Some thoughts, from what I've read (never seen one close up) they are an attractive efficient little aircraft, perhaps some options could be considered:-Longer wing option for motor glider (especially suited to the electric option) I dont think this will be necessary, the are very slippery, and glide very well. if anything, the need spoilers (which many owners have added) to help get them down. They also fly very well, very light controls. very nice well balanced. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Ultrabat at world aerobatic championships is new to me? I flew it when it visited a national aerobatic championship many years ago. I would've been happy to compete in it but no-one has that I am aware of. Another thread a while back where we discussed the Ultrabat - I spoke to the person planning to produce kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The first Aussie company that sells an affordable electric aircraft with decent performance will be on to a winner. Can you put a literal price on "affordable"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Isn't Morgan building a motor glider as we speak, To be GFA registered? Trailerable Sapphire would have its merits, but how would that impact on structural integrity, I believe in their current form they are a very strong little aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Hi David,Currently the Sapphire is classed as LSA. It would be easier to get it back in the air using it's existing COA. The Ultrabat distributorship was actually up for sale a while ago. I am not sure if it still is. I think the market for a pure aerobatic aircraft would be smaller, although if promoted perhaps a one make competition could be created.. I would assume all current Ultrabats are VH registered as RA-Aus doesn't allow aerobatics. Who owns the IP in the Sapphire and the Ultrabat? You reference distributors ... are they distributors of a licensed product (have a license to distribute) or have they purchased the design and rights and are manufacturers? Both were originally Scott Winton designs and I know he sold the design rights to the Sapphire 25 + years ago. He was heavily involved in the Ultrabat design with someone else whose name alludes me ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechfx Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Can you put a literal price on "affordable"? Affordable is always going to be subjective……… How about I stick my neck out and suggest $30k ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 ... Scott Winton designs and ... He was heavily involved in the Ultrabat design with someone else whose name alludes me ATM. The Ultrabat was a George Markey project. George was the founding President of the AUF. I'm surprised to hear about all these Ultrabats. I thought there were only ever two and they both ended up going to the USA, but more may have been done with it that I'm not aware of. I'm not sure what the comment about trailering and structural integrity means in regard of the Sapphire. It's quite trailerable as far as I know, I've seen a number of them being trailered, the wings come off and go on in a few minutes. You just have to be careful to support the tailboom when trailering them, not just sit it on the tailwheel. I've repaired a couple of damaged tailbooms on Sapphires, one where the prop departed and cut the tailboom halfway through - very lucky/skilled pilot landed it on the highway with very gentle elevator control inputs, the second was cracked from repeated tailwheel-first landings. Affordable is always going to be subjective……… How about I stick my neck out and suggest $30k ? I don't think you could build a Sapphire cheap enough and put a decent engine on it, to retail for $30K, probably not even if built in China, there's a fair bit of work and materials in them ... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 There are two 'Bats, both in Australia. The Mk II is currently being re-engined from the original 582, and the new owner of that plus the mouldings (which are works of art, made in the USA) is I believe actively considering the possibility of going into some sort of production, but there's quite a way to go before that might happen. However, the 'Bat is a very different beast to the Sapphire, particularly under the skin, where the production techniques required are several orders of magnitude more high-tech in order to handle the stresses of open aerobatic championship-level work and it would not be a cheap aircraft, in terms of $$ for kgs of aircraft, to produce. It's also -from pilot reports - a typically 'demanding' aircraft to fly, in that it's not something intended for relaxing cross-country work; George Markey's sole intent for the design was for something that one takes out on the weekends and does unlimited aerobatics in in 20-minute or so bursts to satisfy that urge. Pitts performance at a fraction of the cost of a Pitts was his basic premise - and the market for that turned out not to really exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I would think if you can keep it under $50k fly away you would have a winner... To my mind the important thing would be to market them successfully to flying schools... At $50k you would be offering 2 aircraft for the price of one twin seater...hire rates per hour $100-$120 would not be a problem...even better if you could include a ballistic shute ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Who owns the IP in the Sapphire and the Ultrabat? You reference distributors ... are they distributors of a licensed product (have a license to distribute) or have they purchased the design and rights and are manufacturers?Both were originally Scott Winton designs and I know he sold the design rights to the Sapphire 25 + years ago. He was heavily involved in the Ultrabat design with someone else whose name alludes me ATM. You may as well get the story right; See http://theultrabat.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Rotax 532 motors could be a trial to source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Yep and right from that web page the following extract ... "On the 26th February 1986, VH-ANT took to the air for its first flight. The ANT was the result of a joint design-and-build enterprise between George Markey, a rusted-on amateur aviation and aerobatic enthusiast, and Scott Winton a young, gifted and highly original aircraft designer, who designed the Sapphire and the multiple record breaking Facet Opal. In the early 1980s, George had been "batting" the ultralight Sapphire, one of Scott’s best known designs. The time had come to materialise his dream of a low cost, low maintenance, all-composite, unlimited aerobatic aircraft for he world. It was to be based on the Sapphire pusher configuration. The two went to work and the amazing and brilliant Ultrabat VH-ANT was the result. It had come a long way from the highwinged Sapphire – it now sported a short but powerfully flapped wing set mid-fuselage and the horizontal stabiliser was raised to meet the propwash. It flew like a little jet. It handled beautifully. It was based on the design and planform of the best handling aircraft ever built, being (in his opinion) the Dehaviland Chipmunk ....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Rotax 532 motors could be a trial to source. What does the Rotax 532 have to do with it? The Sapphire, as I recall, had a Rotax 447. The Ultrabat Mk II had a Rotax 583 (yes, five eight three). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Affordable is always going to be subjective……… How about I stick my neck out and suggest $30k ? I don't think it's subjective for a good majority of people who simply can't afford $30K but within aviation I think you are correct in saying that $30K is affordable - relative in the arena. I don't think you could build a Sapphire cheap enough and put a decent engine on it, to retail for $30K, probably not even if built in China, there's a fair bit of work and materials in them ... $25K is doable but again if that's "affordable" or not is the question - why bother doing it for that price and sell 10 of them when at $35K you might sell 8 anyway and double your margin. Of course your idea of a "decent" engine might be a Rotax for $20K+ which doesn't leave much margin to build the plane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Engine will be the key to the price I think....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 and the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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