Plane Crash Barossa Valley 26/6

[turboplanner]

Speculating is no good Turbs if your beating up a completely wrong bush track, and may also be counterproductive ultimately............Maj....

Speculation plays no part in the official investigation. When a full investigation is complete, all the speculation falls away.

 

In the meantime many valuable lessons can be learned.

 

In RAA flying this is the only way to get benefits because we don't see any final aviation reports, just Coroner's Findings and that's only if they make the news. For the most part we get nothing, and that's what's counter productive.

 

 

[facthunter]

That's a pretty astute comment ranka,. It's a pretty level field. if you wanted to show you wealth or skills you wouldn't jump into some crude wind affected U/L with everyone in the club house watching hoping you will stuff up. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Turbs,

 

Have you completed the RAA crash investigators course, and made your services available 24/7 /365 for same ?.?.........Maj....

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Have you completed the RAA crash investigators course, and made your services available 24/7 /365 for same ?.

I did, i offered, several times. Met with the usual stone wall. One day ill be one of the boys!!...haha:amazon:

 

 

[facthunter]

I can't remember the exact time I did too , Andy.. It's a while back. Not interested and I think I have some form and qualifications in the area. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I did, i offered, several times. Met with the usual stone wall. One day ill be one of the boys!!...haha:amazon:

Its not what you know , its who you know

 

 

[David Isaac]

Turbs,Have you completed the RAA crash investigators course, and made your services available 24/7 /365 for same ?.?.........Maj....

Ross with respect even if Tubz did, he would be muzzled and could not pass any information on to pilots. Whether he is, has, or does investigations does not lessen the logic of his argument.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Turbs,Have you completed the RAA crash investigators course, and made your services available 24/7 /365 for same ?.?.........Maj....

No I haven't; I'm pretty much occupied in another branch of the transport industry - road transport, where we are currently debating the emerging worrying accident trend of kerbside cafes and coffee shops with no protective barriers.

 

Aside from that there's been no suggestion whatsoever from me that RAA investigators have been either unavailable or inadequate. I'm focused on the real issue which at present is systemic, and that means I'm also not critical of police or coroners.

 

So another three or four of us tramping round a crash site will not change that issue.

 

 

[facthunter]

Not a fun thing at all, but needs experience background and training.. I can't see the resources being applied. Back then it was more of a "CLUB" . Everything is done within house. ( which leaked like a sieve).. Surely we have outgrown that. Nev

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Well the point I was trying to make gentleman is that there is nothing gained from being critical of, or knocking a system if your not prepared to put your hand up and be part of the solution......talks cheap....but it takes money to buy whisky..............Maj....

 

 

[turboplanner]

There are plenty of people paying the money Major - about 8, 000, so maybe the first point you could look at for a way forward is:

 

(a) Was there a previous approach from ATSB to investigate RAA accidents?

 

(b) Did RAA reject any offer to investigate, and if so what were the reasons?

 

If the reasons were sound - financial etc, then I will make some inquiries with my contacts to get their minds thinking about help.

 

If the reasons were spurious, then that's what you were elected to fix.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Turbs ,

 

Your way behind the eight ball mate....past history...you really need to keep up.

 

One thing the new board has highlighted is the need to have our accidents investigated by the ATSB. Our argument is we don't have the funds to do so unless CASA gives us more, than we currently recieve on a yearly basis.

 

However if you had taken the time to read the report from the recent goverment inquiry, one of the recommendations is that they now do so, and they specifically mention us.

 

This may be a result of us bringing it up as part of our submission to the enquiry, together with mamy other areas of concern that effect us and our operations......

 

Additionally as a result of the trike fatality in Victoria a month or so ago, our tech man Darren Barnfield has instigated a program which has been funded by the Vic Police department to have Darren provide lecturers and training for police departments throughout the state in respect to police office conduct or responsibilities at RAA crash sites....I suggested to Darren that we extend the program throughout the country and an online info brochure is being put together which any Police service or like group will be able to instantly access or download for the training of their officers. Darren has already conducted lecturers with the Vic Police departments and has reported a great response from our imput..this is just one inititivee that the current board has put into motion................Maj....

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, here's the link to the RAA submission, and the outcome, which is a good starting point

 

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/asrr/submissions/files/127_ra_aus_30_jan_2014.pdf

 

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/asrr/files/ASRR_Executive_Summary.pdf

 

It's great to see Darren's positive work with the Victoria Police, but again, we haven't been discussing investigations so much as getting Final Reports, and that is still a long way off.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Thanks for posting those Turbs..............Maj.....

 

 

[John Brandon]

In an earlier post in this thread, possibly when discussing design manoeuvring speed, someone queried "Why would you apply full control deflection?"

 

Perhaps, in response that question, a pertinent scenario is this: imagine a disorientated non-IFR pilot - caught out in low level IMC in a very light aircraft - suddenly encountering a windscreen full of rapidly rising, clockwise rotating terrain. The instinctive response of any pilot, and probably including any accompanying pilot, is to raise the nose and level the wings by pulling the control column back hard while pushing it to the right. The rapid change in the wing lift coefficient as a whole, in flight at speeds well above the design manoeuvring speed, produces a very high wing loading and, momentarily, a very high load factor in the normal plane. In addition the heavy application of down aileron on the lower wing will add to the aerodynamic force generated on the section of wing ahead of the aileron and move the port wing centre of lift further towards that wingtip, so increasing the moment of force at the spar root. Also the downgoing aileron is also applying a twisting force to the port outer wing structure. So some part of the structure is liable to give, leading to outer wing or full wing separation.

 

If the port outer wing separates the centre of lift force moves into the starboard wing and the aircraft will roll to the left so that the lift force is no longer directed upward. All this happens in seconds or fractions of seconds and, if very low, I guess there is nothing the PIC can do about it before ground impact.

 

John Brandon

 

For those interested in Va I should mention there is a reasonably comprehensive section, equivalent to two A4 print pages, on the design manoeuvring speed in my tutorials at http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/umodule2.html#vspeed_codes

 

 

[dodo]

>>> on the design manoeuvring speed in my tutorials at http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/umodule2.html#vspeed_codes

 

link not working,

 

dodo

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

In an earlier post in this thread, possibly when discussing design manoeuvring speed, someone queried "Why would you apply full control deflection?"Perhaps, in response that question, a pertinent scenario is this: imagine a disorientated non-IFR pilot - caught out in low level IMC in a very light aircraft - suddenly encountering a windscreen full of rapidly rising, clockwise rotating terrain. The instinctive response of any pilot, and probably including any accompanying pilot, is to raise the nose and level the wings by pulling the control column back hard while pushing it to the right. The rapid change in the wing lift coefficient as a whole, in flight at speeds well above the design manoeuvring speed, produces a very high wing loading and, momentarily, a very high load factor in the normal plane. In addition the heavy application of down aileron on the lower wing will add to the aerodynamic force generated on the section of wing ahead of the aileron and move the port wing centre of lift further towards that wingtip, so increasing the moment of force at the spar root. Also the downgoing aileron is also applying a twisting force to the port outer wing structure. So some part of the structure is liable to give, leading to outer wing or full wing separation.

 

If the port outer wing separates the centre of lift force moves into the starboard wing and the aircraft will roll to the left so that the lift force is no longer directed upward. All this happens in seconds or fractions of seconds and, if very low, I guess there is nothing the PIC can do about it before ground impact.

 

John Brandon

 

For those interested in Va I should mention there is a reasonably comprehensive section, equivalent to two A4 print pages, on the design manoeuvring speed in my tutorials at http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/umodule2.html#vspeed_codes

In red above - In my early flying days having stupidly suckered myself into a situation all too similar to what you're describing I don't have to imagine it at all, I remember it all too well.

 

It's a very good example, John, and whilst I'm not suggesting every whiteout situation ends up the same, in my reality it wasn't quite like you describe. Obviously you're suggesting the 'victim' is in a spiral dive to the left because otherwise to see what you describe he would have to be spinning and the control column would then probably already be all the way back, and possibly already to the right as well.

 

In my experience my first glimpse of anything - and this was only after a few seconds of white-out, perhaps around 15 seconds though it seemed very much longer - was of dark craggy rockfaces. I was in a spiral dive but there was absolutely no sensation of rapidly rising terrain, and not because of time slowing down and all that, but simply that the rate of descent in a spiral dive isn't great enough to provide any sensation of ground-rush until you get extremely low (much lower than would result in a wing panel being 1km away from the rest of the airframe) - try it for yourself, even at 500ft there's no ground-rush. Even in a spin there isn't any particular sensation of rapidly rising terrain unless you got very low indeed.

 

Regarding the clockwise rotating terrain - I didn't have any large indication of rotating terrain, certainly the sight picture was very confusing because the terrain was moving but it wasn't obviously rotating rapidly or anything like that, after all I was turning, not spinning, and the rate of turn even at 60* bank doesn't initially give a strong indication of rotation. If you were in a spin it would of course.

 

My first impression when I could see again was just one of complete confusion and disorientation, I was descending into a valley and the clouds were below the terrain so there was no visible horizon and without that I didn't notice that I was steeply banked. I expect I would have been flying very un-coordinated, more likely slipping rather than skidding, so the side pressure would have added to my disorientation. Perhaps if I'd descended over flat land and immediately had a horizon I would have worked it all out more quickly. I was in a Drifter and so had limited visual references too, and that probably didn't help but it certainly did help that it's a high drag and high strength airframe so wouldn't build up great speed too quickly and also is unlikely to shed the wings.

 

Anyway, I didn't haul the controls anywhere, in fact I couldn't work out what to do. I didn't freeze in the sense of not being able to think what to do, it was just that with plenty of thinking about it I couldn't work out which way I was going so I couldn't react. It took just a few seconds probably and then I recognised that I had a large bank angle and then became aware of the loud wind in the wires and my training (glider - thank you GFA) kicked in and I rolled level and very slowly brought the nose up.

 

Then I started shaking and had to spend the next while flying in cloud tunnels in an ever-shrinking valley as the low cloud descended further. As quick as the cloud came upon me it cleared away again and I could see my destination, Kilkivan, over a low saddle. It was an unspeakably frightening experience that I still 'see' in vivid detail.

 

Lesson learned - when flying up valleys always look behind first, to see what's following, in case descending cloud prevents getting over the high end of the valley and you have to turn around. In my case a storm front was following me and when I turned around the rain was too heavy to break through with a timber prop. Even when it became essential and I tried to do so the stinging pain from the heavy rain on my exposed face in an open cockpit was unbearable, and that was quite apart from not being able to see anything in the rain except directly below. I quickly turned back but instead of breaking out of the rain again the cloud had descended further and enveloped me.

 

 

[John Brandon]

>>> on the design manoeuvring speed in my tutorials at http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/umodule2.html#vspeed_codeslink not working,

 

dodo

Sorry. finger trouble, should be http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/groundschool/umodule2.html#vspeed_codes

 

 

[John Brandon]

In red above - In my early flying days having stupidly suckered myself into a situation all too similar to what you're describing I don't have to imagine it at all, I remember it all too well.It's a very good example, John, and whilst I'm not suggesting every whiteout situation ends up the same, in my reality it wasn't quite like you describe. Obviously you're suggesting the 'victim' is in a spiral dive to the left because otherwise to see what you describe he would have to be spinning and the control column would then probably already be all the way back, and possibly already to the right as well.

In that scenario I didn't consider that a spiral dive would have time to develop, just a nasty unusual attitude close to terra firma.

 

John

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

Sorry. finger trouble, should be http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/groundschool/umodule2.html#vspeed_codes

That one doesn't work either - try this instead ;-)

 

In that scenario I didn't consider that a spiral dive would have time to develop, just a nasty unusual attitude close to terra firma.John

It depends on how developed you mean, I'd have said you'd be in the unusual attitude of a spiral dive by the time you'd become excessively banked and allowed the nose to fall, from then on it's just a matter of how long you remain in that condition.

 

Even so, my expose was only meant to demonstrate that suddenly finding yourself in an unusual attitude doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to reef the controls around even if suddenly there's ugly looking terrain staring you in the face. In my very unsettling experience it was interesting to note that I didn't move the controls until there was some logic in terms of which way to move them, and even then I only used them to the extent required to safely correct the situation.

 

Had I just encountered an EFATO I would have instantly pushed the stick forward because my training was/is so ingrained as for that action to be absolutely instinctive, I would make that correction before thought even came into it. However, in the disorientation of the IMC incident there could not be any instinct involved until I'd worked out my attitude.

 

On a different note I've often seen a quite different situation where students are actually quite forcibly taught to exceed the control deflection limitations while at cruise well above Va. For my GA licence I went to a school which was well regarded for turning out efficient commercial pilots, all of the instructors were ex-RAAF and it showed, everything was done to rote and a sharp rap over the knuckles resulted if any precise steps were missed. Consequently on Navex we would climb to exactly cruise altitude, level out, build speed to high cruise, reduce power and maintain altitude to within 50ft and keep wings level - or else. The altitude was no problem but keeping the wings precisely level on any day with even moderate Westerly winds coming over the ranges meant regular full aileron input and that was probably at 1.2Va plus ...

 

In recreational flying I don't worry about constantly correcting roll from turbulence as the next bump will more than likely be in the opposite direction to the last one but many of the people I have flown with do work hard at correcting every turbulence induced deviation.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Not on an engine failure after takeoff you don't Deb. An engine failure at height when at cruise speed you use the speed to maintain or gain height as you wash off speed to the best glide speed.

 

On take off you are climbing at a lower speed than cruise and if you don't lower the nose instinctively you will be at the stall speed in real short time.

 

In the old rag and tube high drag ultralights, when the 2 stroke stops on a climb after takeoff, you are at stall speed almost instantly. They are the ones that catch GA pilots out.

 

 

[turboplanner]

You have an EFATO on climb out where you would not expect to have excess speed.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I would hope not m'dear. But remember take off safety speed is only 1.2 x Vs1 (takeoff flap configuration stall).

 

That is only a margin of 20% over the takeoff configuration stall speed.

 

How many seconds do you think you have at takeoff climb angle with only a 20% margin over stall before you hit the stall speed if you don't lower the nose?

 

 

[Garfly]

This is a nice little article from Flying Mag. talking about 'the big (EFATO) push':

 

http://www.flyingmag.com/technique/proficiency/human-factor-big-push-improbable-turn

 

 

[djpacro]

... But remember take off safety speed is only 1.2 x Vs1 (takeoff flap configuration stall).That is only a margin of 20% over the takeoff configuration stall speed. ..

Not always, it may be more for some types. For some types it may be less (depending on certification basis and applicability of the relevant bit of the CAO) - for the aeroplane that I usually fly, speed at 50 ft is 7% above the stall speed. The manual has this warning: "The aircraft must be pitched forward to a safe power off speed should a power failure occur during climb-out; failure to respond immediately may result in a stall at low altitude." The manual defines a warning as "An operational procedure, practice or condition, etc which may result in injury or fatality, if not carefully observed or followed."I believe it - and "immediately" means immediately at 7% above the stall for an aeroplane climbing steeply at 50 kts.