Guest john Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 You cannot have a STC for an ASTM certified aircraft - they don't have a TC in the first place. For your information Oscar & everyone else on this Forum about Jabiru Engines, & all other knockers & naysayers, let it be known without question that there are Jabiru aircraft that have been previously factory built & have had a CASA approved STC Rotax 912 engine firewall forward installation fitted to their unreliable Jabiru engined aircraft which are still flying safely within Australia today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yes, but NOT the LSA ones to which the ASTM standard applies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianboag Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 For your information Oscar & everyone else on this Forum about Jabiru Engines, & all other knockers & naysayers, let it be known without question that there are Jabiru aircraft that have been previously factory built & have had a CASA approved STC Rotax 912 engine firewall forward installation fitted to their unreliable Jabiru engined aircraft which are still flying safely within Australia today. I can't see the relevance of this to the current thread. There was an STC - ages ago - for early 450 kg Jabs with an 912UL (80hp) - owner was Tony Grills. The aircraft had a load capacity of one pilot, his dog, a credit card and 3 cups of gas. I think there were two aircraft converted. I think they might have been at Rockhampton and I don't know if they are still there and/or flying. There is a 160C at YCAB that was done via an EO, not an STC. I won't bore you with the details, but there will never be an STC based on that conversion - or another EO as the rules have changed. Dafydd L has pointed this out elsewhere. A 544kg 160C with a 912ULS is getting a bit marginal weight-wise too (you could ask me how I know). Can't do the 600kg thing as the stall speed is a tad high. There are other Jabs with Rotaxes in Oz ( I know of a J170 and a J400), but they are not factory builds. The J160C that I (foolishly) imported to NZ and (even more foolishly) Rotaxified was a factory build, but over here all ultralights are treated like Aus 19- aircraft. LSA's excepted of course .... Lord knows what would happen if an Australian wanted to buy it off me - CASA would have a bit of a fit. Effectively it would be a 24- turned into a 19- which is a total nono as far as I know. It flies nicely though. The time/cost are all sunk and in the long term we're all dead anyway :-) So I guess that strictly speaking you are right - there are legal 24- Rotax conversions in Australian skies, but don't hold your breath waiting to see any more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 For your information Oscar & everyone else on this Forum about Jabiru Engines, & all other knockers & naysayers, let it be known without question that there are Jabiru aircraft that have been previously factory built & have had a CASA approved STC Rotax 912 engine firewall forward installation fitted to their unreliable Jabiru engined aircraft which are still flying safely within Australia today. Yes the J160C models which where certified by CASA and not by Jabiru as I have quite clearly had pointed out to me before on this forum. See guys I may be slow on the uptake but I do get it eventually:ecstatic: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I know of one serious project to produce an STC for J160Cs that progressed a fair way down the track with the engineering work and then stopped, because it became apparent that - for all of the reasons Ian Boag has mentioned plus a realistic appraisal of the costs - the results would have produced uneconomic and too performance-restricted aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan4321 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Appears to be a step forward, let's see how big that step gets. ( encompassing type "C" aircraft could save a lot of folks )$14k changeover, no restrictions, I'm in. I am in the market for a J400 with an engine which has had all the necessary mods done to the engine (heads, camshafts, valves, barrels, through-bolts) and am getting it at a good price. Is that $14k for the change over from a Jab 3300 to a CAMit 3300? Can someone elaborate on this as a viable option and the costs of change over? I want to operate out of Class D so I really need the Jab engine gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan4321 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Does anyone know also whether a Jabiru powered J400 can operate out of Caloundra Aerodrome (YCDR). I know the Sunshine Coast airport is a no no. But just seeing if anyone knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Does anyone know also whether a Jabiru powered J400 can operate out of Caloundra Aerodrome (YCDR). I know the Sunshine Coast airport is a no no. But just seeing if anyone knows? What's the limitation on Shunshine Coast, or is that just someone's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan4321 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 That's just my assumption. I have spoken to CFI's at the Sunshine Coast airport and it seems to be that any airport within CTA is definitely a 'populous' area and hence Jabiru powered aircraft are not allowed. I would love to hear differently if someone has a solid (and reliable) contravention to this assumption as it would much rather be operating out of my home airfield (Sunshine Coast) rather than Caloundra (if even we are allow at this Aerodrome). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 That's not what the instrument says - but I won't argue the details - doesn't stop me using class C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan4321 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 That's not what the instrument says - but I won't argue the details - doesn't stop me using class C. Hmmm, can someone else chime in on this as it seems a bit of a grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Yes, a lawyer who specialises in Public Liability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryan4321 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The pilot in command of a Jabiru-powered aircraft is only permitted to operate the aircraft over a populous area at a height: (a) from which the aircraft can glide clear of all populous areas to a suitable forced-landing area;and (b) that is at least 1 000 feet above ground level, except to the minimum extent necessary for the aircraft to safely climb after take-off or safely descend for a landing. NoteParagraph (a), together with the definition of populous area, has the effect of prohibiting Jabiru-powered aircraft from departing from or landing at various places, including but not limited to Archerfield, Bankstown and Moorabbin Airports. ================== If I am taking off from the Sunshine Coast airport. I would be able to glide to the beach on runway 18 / 36 no problems at all. And runway 12/05 the same. Well runway 05 will be gliding to the open paddocks / bushland. So technically there is no problem with this airport would you say? Would the only way to get a definite be by talking to CASA? Or is it up to the individual to make this assessment based on the information? Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Read the instrument, as you have, and act on it. If you listen to some here, you would be frightened to get out of bed, let alone fly a SE aeroplane anywhere. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The pilot in command of a Jabiru-powered aircraft is only permitted to operate the aircraft over a populous area at a height: (a) from which the aircraft can glide clear of all populous areas to a suitable forced-landing area;and (b) that is at least 1 000 feet above ground level, except to the minimum extent necessary for the aircraft to safely climb after take-off or safely descend for a landing. NoteParagraph (a), together with the definition of populous area, has the effect of prohibiting Jabiru-powered aircraft from departing from or landing at various places, including but not limited to Archerfield, Bankstown and Moorabbin Airports. ================== If I am taking off from the Sunshine Coast airport. I would be able to glide to the beach on runway 18 / 36 no problems at all. And runway 12/05 the same. Well runway 05 will be gliding to the open paddocks / bushland. So technically there is no problem with this airport would you say? Would the only way to get a definite be by talking to CASA? Thanks everyone. If you can glide clear and stay above 1000 ft you will be fine, is it RAA or VH registered ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The pilot in command of a Jabiru-powered aircraft is only permitted to operate the aircraft over a populous area at a height: (a) from which the aircraft can glide clear of all populous areas to a suitable forced-landing area;and (b) that is at least 1 000 feet above ground level, except to the minimum extent necessary for the aircraft to safely climb after take-off or safely descend for a landing. NoteParagraph (a), together with the definition of populous area, has the effect of prohibiting Jabiru-powered aircraft from departing from or landing at various places, including but not limited to Archerfield, Bankstown and Moorabbin Airports. ================== If I am taking off from the Sunshine Coast airport. I would be able to glide to the beach on runway 18 / 36 no problems at all. And runway 12/05 the same. Well runway 05 will be gliding to the open paddocks / bushland. So technically there is no problem with this airport would you say? Would the only way to get a definite be by talking to CASA? Thanks everyone. Can you glide to those areas if your engine cuts out at say 200feet/300ft/400ft. Is there ever a point in your normal take off/landing sequence where you could not glide clear. These are the types of questions that I ask myself when considering the suitability of the airfield. Some runways may be suitable whilst others may not. Just things to consider. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Read the instrument, as you have, and act on it. If you listen to some here, you would be frightened to get out of bed, let alone fly a SE aeroplane anywhere. You clearly aren't one of those lawyers Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The following is part of CAO CASA101 Note that this is for unmanned aircraft;someone else might like to do the hunting to see if there is a different CASA definition on file, but this one says if you hit someone you're pretty much going to be paying the bills. 101.025 Meaning of populous area For this Part, an area is a populous area in relation to the operation of an unmanned aircraft or rocket if the area has a sufficient density of population for some aspect of the operation, or some event that might happen during the operation (in particular, a fault in, or failure of, the aircraft or rocket) to pose an unreasonable risk to the life, safety or property of somebody who is in the area but is not connected with the operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Excludes take off and landing doesnt it, otherwise almost all public strips would be out $14 k is for the core engine, need another $3K to swap bits plus refit Dont write off a J400, its likely to be running solid lifter engine ayway CAE does get out of limitations though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 It occurred to me that CASA's mention of a few large airports could be misleading, so I have done a little more searching and found in the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998: 137.145 APPLICATION OVER POPULOUS AREA http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s137.145.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=POPULOUS Populous Area here is defined: "Populous area", in relation to flight by an aeroplane means an area where, if the aeroplane's engine failed, the aeroplane would not be able to glide safely clear of any occupied building." 137.185 TAKE - OFF OVER A POPULOUS AREA http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s137.185.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=POPULOUS Disclaimer: I still wouldn't guarantee I've found the rule that will be applicable or the plaintiff's lawyers, and haven't checked whether this has been superseded, and it has a different effect to that of unmanned flight, which also may lead to lawyers taking differing views. So you must do some very detailed research, or take my earlier advice and secure your assets by spending a couple of hundred dollars with a PL lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 There should be an announcement from RAA fairly shortly that will clarify the situation re CAE engines being used in controlled airspace. RAA has been working with CASA on this; the content of the announcement needs to be made public by those responsible (not any third party) but will, I believe, be welcomed. However - remember that this will be for CAE engines, not CAMit core rebuilds which remain legally Jabiru engines. Since there is very, very little of the original Jabiru engine left in a CAMit core rebuild, it seems a strange situation but it has to do with meeting the convoluted regulations. The engine doesn't know what the paperwork is, it just knows whether it is happy to go around and around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 There is not a huge difference in price between the core rebuild and the new CAE engine considering all the extra bits you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 which also may lead to lawyers taking differing views. Come on! That would NEVER happen! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Hired guns they call themselves. This is their excuse for behaving badly. ( with apologies to the few who don't ) Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 The engine doesn't know what the paperwork is, it just knows whether it is happy to go around and around... Yes, but is the crankcase now made of forged alloy? If it's not we "know" it won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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