rankamateur Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 rick-p, surely you are not now suggesting the issue is it took too long for the digital magazine to be implemented?I look forward to seeing your motion at the AGM regarding providing members "free" magazines and a fee rise of $90. In discussions on this forum, the value of the required fee increase to cover the ongoing paper magazine was given as $40, not $90. Surely the $90 price reflects the now much smaller circulation. Get it right when you draft the motion for the AGM. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I'm happy to forgo the paper magazine instead of a $40 membership increase. I'm happy with the boards decision on this issue so won't be drafting any motion on this. I can understand your concern re the changes in the prices but it just discussion after all, nothing official was ever stated. It's now $90 and more then likely go up as less people go the subscription route. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 rick-p, surely you are not now suggesting the issue is it took too long for the digital magazine to be implemented?I look forward to seeing your motion at the AGM regarding providing members "free" magazines and a fee rise of $90. I'm not suggesting anything just making an observation. What one looks forward to is not always that which one gets and I have absolutely no intention putting any motion before the Board. I don't really care how much the membership fee is or what the magazine costs I only care in matters of fairness and the retention of something tangible. If we as members need to pay more in fees to guarantee the viability of our organisation then so be it. Compared to other interest, sporting and Motorsport organisations we get off cheap.Given the fact that the majority of aviators in this country are aged over sixty it's no wonder that there is such resistance to move away from print media. If you need something to read in the dunny buy the Weekly Times. It's so nice to see that you feel that our association magazine is in the same category as toilet reading material because I think that most of the members feel that it is usually a good read not mater where you choose to read it. Obviously you haven't got the maturity to appreciate the difference between the real thing and a placebo which exactly is what a digital book or publication is. I really feel sorry for our next generation not being able to savour the feel of real paper in their hands. I suppose you will advocate for the introduction at some time digital toilet paper, that will be most interesting I must say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Never mind grandad, just remember not to put the electronic dyke brush to your ear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Andy, then has the problem been laches in implementing the Board's decision as some 6 months plus has passed since the motion was tabled? Timing will always be driven by contracted positions already in place. Given that contracts are always about certainty, for both parties, most don't have a cancellation for convenience clause and as such you let them run to full term, but you are very clear well in advance on what you will do when the contract ends, or when you choose to end it. In October last year we were in the latter stages of an existing contract. WRT to the $40 thing...that might well have been true at the time it was said but I hold no expectation that it will still be the case next year, or the year after etc... RAAus's 10,000 mags per month is tiny compared to the print shops total monthly print, but that monthly print is shrinking every month driving up the costs for those that are still printed....If we as an example accept a $40 across the board increase then I'll bet we are back for a larger than CPI increase in 12 months time for the entire membership. That is equally the case for those that choose to buy paper now IMHO, but at the end of the day it is an individuals determination as to what per paper magazine price they are prepared to accept.... for those that are happy to go digital the whole long term unsustainable paper printing thing becomes a non issue now and forever. Being angry with the board for taking a position of sustainability where the circumstances of that sustainability issue are whole of community sized and not just RAAus related is imho unfair on the board. We could ignore it, stick head in sand and then we'd be just the same as the last board that we caned for sticking their head in the sand! I get that you (broad you, not any poster specifically) would prefer to receive paper, just like you would probably prefer that milk and bread were still delivered to your front door by the milko and the baker each morning, but wishing it were so wont undo the inevitable change that has and is happening. It is what it is people! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Timing will always be driven by contracted positions already in place. Given that contracts are always about certainty, for both parties, most don't have a cancellation for convenience clause and as such you let them run to full term, but you are very clear well in advance on what you will do when the contract ends, or when you choose to end it. In October last year we were in the latter stages of an existing contract.WRT to the $40 thing...that might well have been true at the time it was said but I hold no expectation that it will still be the case next year, or the year after etc... RAAus's 10,000 mags per month is tiny compared to the print shops total monthly print, but that monthly print is shrinking every month driving up the costs for those that are still printed....If we as an example accept a $40 across the board increase then I'll bet we are back for a larger than CPI increase in 12 months time for the entire membership. That is equally the case for those that choose to buy paper now IMHO, but at the end of the day it is an individuals determination as to what per paper magazine price they are prepared to accept.... for those that are happy to go digital the whole long term unsustainable paper printing thing becomes a non issue now and forever. Being angry with the board for taking a position of sustainability where the circumstances of that sustainability issue are whole of community sized and not just RAAus related is imho unfair on the board. We could ignore it, stick head in sand and then we'd be just the same as the last board that we caned for sticking their head in the sand! I get that you (broad you, not any poster specifically) would prefer to receive paper, just like you would probably prefer that milk and bread were still delivered to your front door by the milko and the baker each morning, but wishing it were so wont undo the inevitable change that has and is happening. It is what it is people! Andy It's a pity Andy that most of those (government and individuals) who tried to stop the executions in Indonesia didn't have your slant on the situation. That is, what is inevitable will happen and can't be changed. So therefore, it follows doesn't it, that those with the reigns who have a mind set whether good or bad won't be diverted from their course or purpose. I suppose that's why we have elections in politics so if the majority view is against the mind set of the ones holding the reigns, the ones holding the reigns at the time can be toppled. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonRamsay Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 It's a pity Andy that most of those (government and individuals) who tried to stop the executions in Indonesia didn't have your slant on the situation. That is, what is inevitable will happen and can't be changed. So therefore, it follows doesn't it, that those with the reigns who have a mind set whether good or bad won't be diverted from their course or purpose. I suppose that's why we have elections in politics so if the majority view is against the mind set of the ones holding the reigns, the ones holding the reigns at the time can be toppled. Dear oh dear, rick-p that is a massive stretch and is bordering on Godwin's Law. Any moment now somebody is going to bring the Nazi argument and bring this discussion to a shuddering halt. Just as sure as the horse & buggy had its day and faded away and petrol fueled cars are moving inexorably towards the end of their product life cycle, print magazines are equally doomed to become collectors items and curiosities. Lament that how you will but that is the certainty for the 21st Century. I don't see that as a bad thing as I'm a fan of digital magazines and not just because they save trees and reduce the need for polluting paper mills. The capability of digital when more fully exploited and enhanced over time is going to make paper magazines look very much like a 3rd rate communication medium. The possibilities with digital being immediate and not having to suffer a two month lag is a great step forward. But then there are the possibilities of live links and video and, one day perhaps 3-D. The possibilities of digital are breath-taking whereas the tw0-dimensions of print media are fixed. Can anyone seriously see print newspapers surviving more than one more decade? Fairfax's "rivers of gold" dried up years ago. Can Australia Post still be delivering handwritten mail in ten years from now? Where is the Telex these days? Ask your grandchildren what a Telegram is and how they were delivered and they won't believe you. Whatever happened to carbon paper? When will cheques finally be phased out? How long has the Fax system got left? Check your desk calendar rick-p, you'll find the days are rolling forwards and, as King Canute declared, "time and tide wait for no man . . . . ". Canute was so eloquently seconded by Cher who wanted to but realised she could not "turn back time". Good luck with that. This movement forwards is inevitable and it's driven not by politicians or technicians but by ordinary people acting as consumers. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick-p Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Don you really forgot to name the most important ingredient of progress cash, money, dinero and bucks, being whatever it is by any name you call it. That is what mostly drives progress unfortunately to the detriment of some very good ideas that have endured time. Everything has it's place in our very existence, some more so than others. What will be do when there is no more oil paints and canvas with no more great artists, with artwork being undertaken by IT people using a digital pen. I would rather eat real beef than synthetic meat and the list goes on and the argument gets wider and bigger. We can't stand in the way of progress, yes I agree with that totally but I don't agree because a few want something different that, lets say the little luxuries that we now experience should be ripped from our very existence and replaced totally with something a lot of us don't want. Why should the majority of us have the minorities wishes forced on us. It's a Godless world gone mad. Case in point, who wants halal food, I don't and I would think that some 20 million plus Australians don't want it either and yet that is forced on us by a minority. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Why spoil your argument with the "godless" reference. The people who are the maddest are doing it in the name of their god. and you then immediately quote a "requirement" of god with reference to food for a particular group. as a case in point.??? General comment on the magazine. Believe it or not there would be people with no modern IT facilities who are otherwise quite capable of flying planes. A lot of people still read and treasure books. I'm not particularly critical of the board decision, but they should still mail out important operational stuff to carry out their responsibilities to ALL members. The Magazine is not FULL of important information but it has been the vehicle of most of it.. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 It's a pity Andy that most of those (government and individuals) who tried to stop the executions in Indonesia didn't have your slant on the situation.That is, what is inevitable will happen and can't be changed. So therefore, it follows doesn't it, that those with the reigns who have a mind set whether good or bad won't be diverted from their course or purpose. I suppose that's why we have elections in politics so if the majority view is against the mind set of the ones holding the reigns, the ones holding the reigns at the time can be toppled. Rick I've pointed out numerous times that talk is cheap......You can claim to be a majority till you're blue in the face, but until its tested through a motion by the entire membership then its still only a claim...... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonRamsay Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 . . . What will be do when there is no more oil paints and canvas with no more great artists, with artwork being undertaken by IT people using a digital pen. To my way of thinking, there have been very few decent oil paintings done in the last 150 years. But, what would I know? I would rather eat real beef than synthetic meat. Depends how good the synthesis is :-) it could end up better (health, taste and texture) than real meat. . . . I don't agree because a few want something different that, lets say the little luxuries that we now experience should be ripped from our very existence and replaced totally with something a lot of us don't want. Why should the majority of us have the minorities wishes forced on us. If it is only demanded by a few, it will become very expensive and only a very few will be able to afford it. The many drive the market not the few. It's a Godless world gone mad. Or a world driven may by god-fearing people? For a full and entertaining discussion on that topic see: Atheist knowledge http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/atheist-knowledge.124895/ Case in point, who wants halal food, I don't and I would think that some 20 million plus Australians don't want it either and yet that is forced on us by a minority. Nobody forces me to eat either halal or kosher (regardless of branding) and eating meat on Fridays (even that one) doesn't bother me. Similarly I am not a vegetarian as required by some religions. Again refer to humorous thread nominated above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 It's a pity Andy that most of those (government and individuals) who tried to stop the executions in Indonesia didn't have your slant on the situation.That is, what is inevitable will happen and can't be changed. So therefore, it follows doesn't it, that those with the reigns who have a mind set whether good or bad won't be diverted from their course or purpose. I suppose that's why we have elections in politics so if the majority view is against the mind set of the ones holding the reigns, the ones holding the reigns at the time can be toppled. Actually Rick, you have portrayed me quite incorrectly, if you see my views in Franks thread on the executions you'll see my view was that I don't in any way support capital punishment. I personally wrote to the Indonesian Ambassador, knowing fullwell that as an Australian citizen my views on Indonesian law counted for next to nothing, but I did what I could knowing it was relatively futile...My view at the time was, that in the case of the 2 in question my writing was a complete waste of my time, however when looking at the long term picture it was not at all useless.... Can you say the same for this issue, have you done all that you can, or are you doing what the tea shirt cartoon shows with the mouse giving the finger to the diving raptor.....The outcome was in that case never in doubt..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driftamark Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi I would be interested to know how many are like myself do not have adsl or nbn and are limited by wireless on good day I would like to know how big the file will be and how long to down load ....as I am not IT savvy. Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 buy a car and find a library, cars are viable alternative to walking or riding your horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ev17ifly2 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I'm not suggesting anything just making an observation.What one looks forward to is not always that which one gets and I have absolutely no intention putting any motion before the Board. I don't really care how much the membership fee is or what the magazine costs I only care in matters of fairness and the retention of something tangible. It's so nice to see that you feel that our association magazine is in the same category as toilet reading material because I think that most of the members feel that it is usually a good read not mater where you choose to read it. Obviously you haven't got the maturity to appreciate the difference between the real thing and a placebo which exactly is what a digital book or publication is. I really feel sorry for our next generation not being able to savour the feel of real paper in their hands. I suppose you will advocate for the introduction at some time digital toilet paper, that will be most interesting I must say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi I would be interested to know how many are like myself do not have adsl or nbn and are limited by wireless on good day I would like to know how bigthe file will be and how long to down load ....as I am not IT savvy. Mark. Mark Its usually about 30 to 40MB in size. using 3G wireless of 3Mbps download (which is mid of the 3G download speed, so could be worse but statistically probably not) , you'll download 0.3MB per second, so somewhere between 100seconds and 130 seconds in duration. If you have 4G then its quite possible it could be less than 20 seconds. To find out what sort of download speeds you are getting go to speedtest.net and run the test, but remember that a test at 3am in the morning will probably be fast, and at 7pm at night probably not...so your mileage may vary. The Telco's all have coverage map which you can interpret to get an idea of speed possibilities. For example the Telstra one is here https://www.telstra.com.au/coverage-networks/our-coverage a quick look at Guildford shows tha the town is 3G only and there are areas where even that looks dodgy as does Optus.....Speedtest will identify what you can actually achieve. If you post back here the download speed you see I can tell you how long, but generally divide the number your given (it must be in mbps) by 10 and divide that into the 30 (best case) or 40 (bigger magazine) to get the number of seconds it should take assuming that the 3G connection is the slowest point in the transfer (usually a fair bet!) If Speedtest.net gives you a download in Kbps instead of Mbps then divide the Kbps number by 1000 to get Mbps and do the calc as already described but note it'll take a longer time to download! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonRamsay Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 You can read a printed copy at your nearest affiliated FTF or AeroClub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 You can read a printed copy at your nearest affiliated FTF or AeroClub. And how long do you think they'll be on the table there Don !......they better send a few copies...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 And how long do you think they'll be on the table there Don !......they better send a few copies...... Was there provision for an aero club that's not affiliated with a ftf? (Not that I was thinking of getting a magazine without paying a subscription:wink: Ok maybe I did 'think' of it) But seriously, was there? We here at YQDI don't follow all the ins and outs but would love a mag to sit in our clubhouse/hangar thingy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driftamark Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Then even for me it what be to bad . Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Was there provision for an aero club that's not affiliated with a ftf?(Not that I was thinking of getting a magazine without paying a subscription:wink: Ok maybe I did 'think' of it) But seriously, was there? We here at YQDI don't follow all the ins and outs but would love a mag to sit in our clubhouse/hangar thingy. That's a good point SDQDI........I know you guys have a lot of ULs there...I will bring that question up with the CEO on your behalf...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Chinese proverb: "When the winds of change blow, some people build walls. Others build windmills..." 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 You could have a "great Wall " ute, and a great windmill ultralight. I hatched a few chickens once who thought talk was "cheep".. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Hi I would be interested to know how many are like myself do not have adsl or nbn and are limited by wireless on good day I would like to know how bigthe file will be and how long to down load ....as I am not IT savvy. Mark. You can pick the high speed internet users by their disparaging remarks about people needing a paper magazine because they aren't moving with the times or they want to live in the dark ages. Thursday at 7.29pm I measured 0.11 Mbps download and 0.34Mbps upload, but that is only the beginning, if it was stable at all I would be able to depend on the pdf arriving, I used 1.1 Gb on Sunday(Took all day and half the night) trying to get a firmware update for my phone and the closest I got was 11% in about 8 attempts and still don't have anything to show for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 That's a good point SDQDI........I know you guys have a lot of ULs there...I will bring that question up with the CEO on your behalf...... SDQDI.......I have touched base with the CEO on the free mags for FTFs and affiliated clubs. That will be the case .....he suggested if your club is not an RAAus affiliate, that you become one and then you'll recieve copies of the magazine each month......Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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