shafs64 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Do caboolture pilots and other pilots think that its safer to join the circuit over head or on down wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2tonne Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I approach at 500 ft above circuit height and then descend to join crosswind over the threshold. It was what I was taught to do, and it gives you a good view of what is happening with traffic. Haven't given much thought to it otherwise. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I do the 500ft above circuit height (remember that is 2000agl as circuit height is 1500 for quickies!) then descend to join crosswind when going to a strange airport or if I have any uncertainty about anything, it is always good IMO to get a good look at the strip from overhead to spot any hazards or at the very least to check the sock. As for if it is safer than a downwind join, I have always thought that that time when in no mans land overhead and descending down to crosswind that that would have to be one of the most dangerous places around the field, after all there could be someone else doing the same thing at the same alt but could be going in any direction so it is definitely a place to keep a good lookout. But having said that I still think that is generally a safer option than a downwind join. I still do downwind joins at times depending on a few things, if done correctly they are safe but keep an eye out for people doing 5mile wide circuits! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 I spotted an article in the RAA mag saying that joining down wind is not a great idea but still legal. according to ASTB more close calls and conflict happens joining the circuit this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 If its quiet i join downwind Most times its not so I nearly always join midfield crosswind... That can be rude when its real busy and thus decending onto crosswind is used ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I spotted an article in the RAA mag saying that joining down wind is not a great idea but still legal. according to ASTB more close calls and conflict happens joining the circuit this way. It is interesting that this is different in different locations around the world. In the USA joining downwind at a 45 degree angle is the preferred method if coming from a direction that suits. If coming from the other side overflying and descending to join on downwind is prefered. Refer figure 9 of this one. https://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/awp/media/education/safety%20advisor%20non-towered%20airports.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shafs64 Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 back in the MBZ days most people would join cross wind. But I did have a person on Tuesday join on base which forced me into a long downwind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I normally join overhead 500 above cct height and drop to join crosswind. Having said that at Caboolture if I have just been in the training area and have been monitoring the ctaf the whole time, I will often join on downwind for 12. Never on the other runways. If I am coming in from the eastern training area/Bribie it is natural to join on an oblique down wind because that is exactly where you are going overfly. Like I say only if I have been monitoring the ctaf for a long time and am comfortable that I have a good picture of the traffic and I identify all of the circuit traffic on the way in. I would not do it if there was another aircraft joining at the same time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearo Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Legally you can join anywhere, although straight in approaches are often outlawed at many aerodromes, and there is broadcast requirements. I often join base at YRED, but only if its quiet; I respect other aircraft in the circuit, I transmit my intentions well before I get to the circuit and if there is any potential conflict I will just overfly and join crosswind. YCAB is a crazy airport at the best of times with its fair share of cowboys, not to mention gliding operations and parachute drops. I would overfly, descend on the dead side and join crosswind. I reckon its going to get hectic there from tomorrow on, remember the new CTAF frequency is 125.85 from midnight tonight. IF you have 2 COM's, I would been tuning into 118.8 for a few months. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf Page 16 has a nice picture 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Pearo when you say you can legally join anywhere I don't think that is technically correct. With the straight in and base leg joins there are quite a few conditions to be met before they can be done legally, not least of which is to make sure it doesn't inconvenience (can't remember specific legal term used) traffic already in the circuit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearo Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Pearo when you say you can legally join anywhere I don't think that is technically correct. With the straight in and base leg joins there are quite a few conditions to be met before they can be done legally, not least of which is to make sure it doesn't inconvenience (can't remember specific legal term used) traffic already in the circuit. My post was probably a bit brief, but its perfectly legal if conditions are met. Worth noting that certain aerodromes prohibit straight in approaches. IT may be legal, does not mean mean its the best way to do it. The only time I will do a straight in approach is when I am in CTA. The only time I do a base join is if no one is in the circuit (read no broadcasts are received from anyone in the circuit), and I broadcast my intentions at the CTAF boundary or reporting point, as well as broadcasting my descent to circuit height with intentions to join base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 from https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/fsa/2005/oct/33-35.pdf Entering the circuit: The preferred method for entering from the downwind side of the circuit is to approach the circuit on a course 45 degrees to the downwind leg and join the circuit at midfield. Give way to aircraft es- tablished in the circuit. Aircraft entering from the dead side should join crosswind at circuit height between mid- field and the departure end of the runway. Give way to aircraft established in the circuit and on the 45 degree entry to downwind. Nothing prevents you from overflying the field to ascertain the wind direction and/ or aerodrome condition. The aerodrome should be overflown at an altitude clear of circuit traffic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Legally you can join anywhere, although straight in approaches are often outlawed at many aerodromes, and there is broadcast requirements. I often join base at YRED, but only if its quiet; I respect other aircraft in the circuit, I transmit my intentions well before I get to the circuit and if there is any potential conflict I will just overfly and join crosswind.YCAB is a crazy airport at the best of times with its fair share of cowboys, not to mention gliding operations and parachute drops. I would overfly, descend on the dead side and join crosswind. I reckon its going to get hectic there from tomorrow on, remember the new CTAF frequency is 125.85 from midnight tonight. IF you have 2 COM's, I would been tuning into 118.8 for a few months. Define crazy. Is it because it is busier than you are used to. I find it fairly easy to devolop a good mind picture of the cicuit. I will admit it can get busy but not crazy. Ifind the area around Bribie can get crazy. With the step at 3500' and people doing all sorts of crazy things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Seems like a few people on here should review CAAP 166-1(3). Some of the content in the link provided by DrZoos is out of date, particularly the radio broadcast recommendations - way too many. CAAP166-1 provides the current view on RT at NCTL aerodromes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearo Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Define crazy. Is it because it is busier than you are used to. I find it fairly easy to devolop a good mind picture of the cicuit. I will admit it can get busy but not crazy. Ifind the area around Bribie can get crazy. With the step at 3500' and people doing all sorts of crazy things. Crazy as in people dropping in on each other, aircraft entering when others are on late final, conflicting circuit operation... I spend enough time both at YCAB and in the CTAF airspace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbear Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 I find sometimes joining overhead can be interesting if some aircraft are departing overhead they are usually on climb whilst your letting down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shags_j Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 Define crazy. Is it because it is busier than you are used to. I find it fairly easy to devolop a good mind picture of the cicuit. I will admit it can get busy but not crazy. Ifind the area around Bribie can get crazy. With the step at 3500' and people doing all sorts of crazy things. I have been flying at Caboolture for Years. Yes i can get a good metal picture of the circuit before joining ( otherwise i may be a bit hesitant to join) but i would still call the ycab circuit crazy. It is the norm to have two or three lsa's with gliders, maybe the tigermoth, nanchang, gyros etc. It is crazy but also good fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 The image below is extracted from CAP166-1(3). I have marked up some of the issues. Joining a circuit on Downwind This option give you a good view of the airstrip and a good change to see that it is clear check the wind etc. If there are existing aircraft in teh circut it can be hard to slot in well as your only option is to speed up or slow down. Joining at 45 This option also gives you a good view of the field and time to set up but has the advantage of allowing you to adjust the position you join the circut to slot in with others. In my opinion at most fields this is my preferred entry. Arriving above Circuit height and descending on the "dead" side It gives you plenty of time to slot into the circuit and a very good opportunity to look for traffic and the field. There are several potential issues with this option. You have to lose 1000 feet fairly quickly, in slick aircraft that can be hard. Aircraft that are departing overhead are likely to be conflicting traffic when you turn and begin descending to get to circuit height. They will potentially be in you blind spot being behind you just before you turn. The other potential conflict is with a high performance aircraft taking off from a good length runway. As you cross over the airstrip at circuit height they may only be a few hundred feet below you. The other issue with this arrival is that often there is either a noise sensitive area (town) or high terrain on the dead side of the circuit and you are doing maneuvering in this area. Joining on Base Leg It docent give you time to look at the field or slot in though adjusting base leg in or out to fit with other traffic is possible. In my mind this is only preferred when the strip is well known and this is the direction you are approaching from. This can be made safer if the pilot decides to do a low approach to have a look at the circuit and then a full stop landing on the next one. (ie a go around but premeditated) Straight In Similar to joining on base only worse for being able to slot in with other traffic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I'm inclined to prefer mid down wind at 45. as the normal deal. If you don't know the wind or runway in use, you need to fly where you can see the sock, so that's midf field crosswind usually.Left (standard) circuits are for pilots (PIC) seated in the left seat, in a side by side, and often your vision to the right is not the best, so it's sensible to minimise that situation happening. Letting down on other traffic is pretty lethal. Departing high performance aircraft may conflict in stronger windspeed conditions. Departing overhead? Perhaps we should outgrow that one. Be on track by 5 miles max and allow distance factor to departing time. Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I have been flying at Caboolture for Years. Yes i can get a good metal picture of the circuit before joining ( otherwise i may be a bit hesitant to join) but i would still call the ycab circuit crazy. It is the norm to have two or three lsa's with gliders, maybe the tigermoth, nanchang, gyros etc.It is crazy but also good fun. I will admit that on a couple of occasions when I had intended to do circuits I found that it was to busy and decided to go elsewhere or do something different. I find in general it is quite ok. Remembering that at YCAB, a radio is not a requirement and as such there is always the possibility of there being an extra aircraft or two around. I still wouldn't call it crazy though. Having learnt there I thought all airfields where like that until after I had completed my Xcountry. I must admit it is sometimes a pleasant change to go into some of the quieter airfields. But then I am always thinking that it is to quiet, am I on the right frequency, where is everyone, am I at the right airfield. LOL. Never happy I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbear Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 My post was probably a bit brief, but its perfectly legal if conditions are met. Worth noting that certain aerodromes prohibit straight in approaches.IT may be legal, does not mean mean its the best way to do it. The only time I will do a straight in approach is when I am in CTA. The only time I do a base join is if no one is in the circuit (read no broadcasts are received from anyone in the circuit), and I broadcast my intentions at the CTAF boundary or reporting point, as well as broadcasting my descent to circuit height with intentions to join base. I sometimes use a base join if I'm the only one in the circuit area and Rex RPT flights have given a 20 or 15 mm straight in call it gets me on the ground and out of their way with plenty of time to spare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Where and when does an RAAus LL endorsement allow a pilot to fly at low level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Pukallus Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Legally you can join anywhere, although straight in approaches are often outlawed at many aerodromes, and there is broadcast requirements. I often join base at YRED, but only if its quiet; I respect other aircraft in the circuit, I transmit my intentions well before I get to the circuit and if there is any potential conflict I will just overfly and join crosswind.YCAB is a crazy airport at the best of times with its fair share of cowboys, not to mention gliding operations and parachute drops. I would overfly, descend on the dead side and join crosswind. I reckon its going to get hectic there from tomorrow on, remember the new CTAF frequency is 125.85 from midnight tonight. IF you have 2 COM's, I would been tuning into 118.8 for a few months. I was taught, read and consistently hear that a straight in approach must give way to circuit traffic... https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf Here is some general info. 6.7 Straight-in approaches 6.7.1 Straight-in approaches are not a recommended standard procedure. However, Regulation 166B of CAR does not preclude pilots from conducting straight-in approaches provided certain conditions are met. Pilots who choose to adopt a straight-in approach should only do so when it does not disrupt, or conflict with, the flow of circuit traffic. Paragraph 166 (2) (b) of CAR requires a pilot conducting a straight-in approach to give way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern. Nonetheless, pilots conforming to the circuit pattern – particularly on the base leg – should continue to check for traffic entering along the final approach path. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now