Roundsounds

I would be interested to hear people’s thoughts in regards to the following quote… “in a slipping turn you are providing anti spin rudder. In a skidding turn pro spin rudder.”

There are airplanes like Citabrias, Decathlons, Cessna Aerobats, Robins and others available for spin training. The main issue I have with gliders being used for power pilot training is the lack of a throttle, I often find during spin training pilots miss setting idle during recovery. It’s highly likely an unintentional spin will be in a situation with power applied. It’s one thing to verbalise it during a briefing, but the proof is in the application. I usually arm the speed brake during stalling sequences in jet simulator training, following the recovery manoeuvre it’s often still armed. Stowing the speed brake is part of the standard Boeing stall recovery manoeuvre. The trainees might have recited the actions during the briefing or immediately prior to the exercise but often omit the step during the practice sequence. As a human factors consideration I fear power pilots would omit setting idle power if spin training was only conducted in a glider.

Sadly a very valuable lost learning opportunity if the instructor didn’t take the time to explain what had happened. Maybe they didn’t know what had happened? It’s worth flying for a bit on days like that to help you become comfortable, one day you might be caught out in them. Even to become comfortable with the stall warning intermittently showing / sounding. A gusty day will often cause a temporary high AoA and trigger a warning, it doesn’t mean you’ve stalled. Knowing what’s acceptable and adding 20 knots to the approach speed isn’t necessarily the answer.

I have stalled many, many times during aerobatics. Both nibbling on the edge and occasionally departing controlled flight. This is all at a safe altitude and mostly in aerobatic aeroplanes. I did years of competition flying, which included streamer cutting in a range of aeroplanes. I recall a most spectacular event in a Cessna 180 at Moruya, I think it frightened the daylights out of the safety pilot! Trying to claw around a 60 bank turn at minimum speed to reduce the turn radius and got a bit enthusiastic. No big deal, simply neutralise the ailerons, stop any yaw with rudder, reduce the angle of attack and recover from the ensuing dive. It’s the playing around the edges of the stall in a safe place that helps you recognise what’s close to a stall and safe versus “this is likely to let go”. You don’t really know that point for a particular aeroplane unless you do that type of exercise. Again I stress at a safe height and if you’re not qualified / proficient in aerobatics have an instructor with you who is proficient and happy to let you explore that end of the flight envelope. anyone who hasn’t done this type of flying is an accident looking for the right time to happen.

It’s the yank not the bank that kills people! People then keep bank angles low and “help” the turn with rudder and skid.

Have a look at the aileron position as it “dipped” the wing versus the aileron position during other shots. He was holding off bank, likely the result of a skidding turn. A nasty combination of being very close to the critical angle of attack and a skidding turn, as he said very close to a spin entry. This is sort of scenario should be a standard training sequence at a safe altitude with an appropriately qualified instructor in an aeroplane certified for spinning. It’s not about spin recovery, but knowing the signs of an impending spin entry.

The critical thing is angle of attack, which is closely related to “stick position”. As you stated, rudder is used to prevent yaw. Unfortunately many people are taught and believe it’s used to pick up a wing approaching / at the stall. If you’re good enough to pick up a wing during a stall you wouldn’t have stalled in the first place.

The best primary training aeroplane around today is the ACA Citabria.

The current standard of flight training is appalling, particularly around recognition of an impending stall and recovery. I use scenario based events to train and assess pilots during stall sequences. Pre solo the scenarios include recognising and recovering from impending and developed stalls in climbing turns, descending turns, balloon during the flare and bounced landing. Teaching stall recovery wings level, 1G is next to useless.

Being fully stalled at touchdown is a falacy! The only aeroplane I’ve flown that comes anywhere near stalled on touchdown is a 3 point landing in a Tiger Moth.

You do realise the ADSB returns are based on pressure height? The QNH at 3pm was 1007, therefore you need to take approx 180’ off the ADSB pressure height return to get an altitude.

Reported as a a first solo and a C172 that’s been at Camden from new.

Obviously the A-320 had the ADSB turned off. The driver of the ute had no chance

It’s good to see the Head of Safety reporting lines now reflect best practice.

Are you sure none of the operating crew had appropriate experience? Even the best of professional teams come together on occasions.

Stalls / spins are just another manoeuvre, you need to be competent at recognising the onset and recovering before they develop. You also need to be competent at recovering from developed stalls / spins. Again I reinforce the need not to fear these manoeuvres, but respect them. At no time did I insult your instructor, my comment was a general one around how stall / spin training is conducted today and supported by accident stats.

If any type of stall scares the hell out of you, you need to find a competent instructor to help you get over the fear. Takeoff and landing are far more risky manoeuvres than stalls at a safe height. I reckon the fear of stalling rubs off from instructors who also have a fear of stalling / spinning.

I was taught to add 500’ to the highest terrain 5NM either side of the planned track as a rule of thumb LSALT. This helps in go / no go decision making if the weather deteriorates. The sole reliance on devices for planning reduces familiarisation with route terrain.

You’re quite correct regarding the limit of 250KIAS below 10,000’. A heavy jet on departure may need to exceed 250 to fly with flaps retracted and ATC can approve the exceedance. ATC may also approve high speed ops below 10,000 if requested by the crew.

There seems to be an increase in mid air collisions in Australia. The most recent event cannot be treated the same as the other events due to the formation aspect. It seems as new technology emerges, so do the number of airprox events. I suspect pilots have lost / not being taught situational awareness skills.

ATC Recording

Many possible causes… https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/occurrence-briefs/2018/aviation/ab-2018-124

Stall warnings systems in many light aircraft are inaccurate, are misunderstood and relied upon way too heavily.

QNH is part of an aeronautical code covering QAA - QNZ. Similar Q codes are used in military and nautical functions. Here’s a link for your reference.

I’m keen to see the airspace model. I reckon Camden will see a 2000’ Class C step overhead. I base this on the steps around KSA. Bankstown will be severely affected and kill any practical abinitio flight training.