Small Flying Schools

[Keith Page]

I hear there is an attempt to close the small flying schools. The regional and rural areas cop it again.

 

If it is not a government then it is a sporting body.

 

To me this an attempt to move everything into close quarters for the South Eastern corner of Australia. Makes life easier for the Lobster and Latte' set.

 

"Decentralise", is the go.

 

KP

 

 

[SSCBD]

Hi Keith - where have you heard this - and are RAA going to fail these flying schools?

 

 

[Thruster88]

If the small flying school is compliant only the operator can decide whether it closes or not.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Compliant is in the eyes of the inspection - many ways to skin a cat, pick on weaknesses, change standards or requirements - however, who would you appeal to if failed by inspection by RAA. Is one available?

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

You would appeal to RAA under their rules, fail, appeal to CASA, fail, appeal to Administrative Appeals Tribunal (by this time you've sold you plane(s) lost your home, wife and sanity) then perhaps at the same time try Australian Securities Commission for oppresive conduct against a shareholder (best of luck on that front).

 

 

[SSCBD]

You would appeal to RAA under their rules, fail, appeal to CASA, fail, appeal to Administrative Appeals Tribunal (by this time you've sold you plane(s) lost your home, wife and sanity) then perhaps at the same time try Australian Securities Commission for oppresive conduct against a shareholder (best of luck on that front).

Correct!

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hi Keith - where have you heard this - and are RAA going to fail these flying schools?

That is the quote I received -- apparently it is costing too much to do an audit on these small schools. So close them is the go.

Crowd the South East Corner is the way to go, I will not elaborate on that point but read your own interpretations into that one.

 

I hear and see reported Australia will need a big number of pilot to service the aviation industry, so wouldn't it be better to encourage all these small schools to increase their number of students. What better place to start is the quiet country areas just to get the feel of the aircraft or worry about what else is in the air as well

 

I do like that old Kevin Wilson telephone song, "You here to help not to make it hard" or terms to that effect.

 

KP

 

 

[octave]

That is the quote I received -- apparently it is costing too much to do an audit on these small schools. So close them is the go.Crowd the South East Corner is the way to go, I will not elaborate on that point but read your own interpretations into that one.

I hear and see reported Australia will need a big number of pilot to service the aviation industry, so wouldn't it be better to encourage all these small schools to increase their number of students. What better place to start is the quiet country areas just to get the feel of the aircraft or worry about what else is in the air as well

 

I do like that old Kevin Wilson telephone song, "You here to help not to make it hard" or terms to that effect.

 

KP

Keith do you have any evidence for this? It seems highly unlikely that RAAus would seek to reduce the number of flying schools and therefore the number of pilots (customers). If I understand what you are saying then these extraordinary claims need some hard evidence.

 

 

[NotSoSuperSonic]

Could probably ask about it at the AGM.

 

 

[Downunder]

One of my worries with the future of RAA and ultralight aviation is the age of current instructors and the lack of new instructors coming through the ranks. If there is a lack of incentive, then the RAA management is not helping.

 

 

[Keith Page]

One of my worries with the future of RAA and ultralight aviation is the age of current instructors and the lack of new instructors coming through the ranks. If there is a lack of incentive, then the RAA management is not helping.

Downunder there is the problem you have in one.

..(NO succession)..

 

For any organisation to survive there must be a succession plan. The conductors of this plan are the people who are currently at the teaching end of the organisation. These older instructors which are the smaller schools they have evolved from the AUF days this is the talent which is going to be lost.

 

Just think for a while these people started pre AUF and in this bunch of instructors, they have come from other fields e.g. *Airlines *Ag Pilots *Sea planes just to name some.

 

Now just think hard ----- where has this new crop has come from, I will not say a thing, you be the judge and be honest with yourself.

 

For succession to succeed:- *The egos must go *No micro managing let the people who really know what is going on do the work *No managing from head office *No micro managing and being disguised in the mist as "Safety" *Develop a culture not point scoring disguised as "Safety".

 

Just look at all that, which new instructor would put them selves through all that stress and interrogation, all their enthusiastic incentives will go and never return.

 

Take a lesson from Cricket Australia. How is that going to be fixed?

 

KP

 

 

[Keith Page]

Keith do you have any evidence for this? It seems highly unlikely that RAAus would seek to reduce the number of flying schools and therefore the number of pilots (customers). If I understand what you are saying then these extraordinary claims need some hard evidence.

I do have concrete evidence.. However the point of this post is to get you all to be awake to this pending plan.

KP.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

This whole safety thing is going to bog our society down and destroy its spirit. ICAO Annex 19 is the source of CASA's thrust in this regard. Annex 19 is supposed to only apply to International operations and "approved training organisations" and not aircraft under 5700kg. This is being reflected in changes to EASA rules where maintenance and training operators will not be required to have SMS.

 

In this country we have laws that relate to the operation of aircraft and system for training people (inc flight reviews) to fly safely. Imposing a subjective safety system with the associated arbitrary review is tantamount to a totalitarian system.

 

After all, a private operator of a VH reg aircraft flies in the same airspace under the same air law WITHOUT an "surveillance" by a private body. If CASA wants to surveil or audit let them do it, as they can do in the VH system today. Experience has shown that they are very loath to do this as there is little in the way of justifiable outcomes.

 

 

[octave]

I do have concrete evidence.. However the point of this post is to get you all to be awake to this pending plan.KP.

Keith the best way to "get us all awake" is to present evidence. I am more than happy to call visit email to turn up at RAAus meetings but I need more than rumours. If I confront a board member and put to them that they have a plan to reduce the number of flying schools because "apparently it is costing too much to do an audit on these small schools. So close them is the go. Crowd the South East Corner is the way to go" - it would be sensible for, me to be able to present some evidence.

 

I am more than happy to contact RAAus on Monday to put this to them but I would need to be able to say "this is what you are doing and here is my evidence." Keith if you have been convinced of this plan by "hard evidence" perhaps like you I would be convinced by "hard evidence" I simply don't understand why this evidence cannot be shared, if not publically then perhaps privately.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Jim McDowall.. Safety is not that hard.. What is "HARD" hard to suffer is the boffins who jumped on the band wagon and made an industry and a career out of "SAFETY" These "Safety Boffins" have got in the ears of the bureaucrats and convinced them that is way to go, the bureaucrats and pollies brought in all this safety legislation. This mob are living on grant money paid for by us tax payers, this crowd are the ones running about telling us what we got to do.

 

Safety is not an actual being it is a product of.............Culture + System + Procedure = Safety

 

So when one is teaching, develop these good habits and there is safety without all this hype and noise we have to suffer.

 

Culture is so important, I see there is more emphasis being put on culture. Culture is the way how we do things planning and looking out for each other.

 

KP

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I think the problem is that there are too many RAA schools, last time I checked it was either 140 or 170 odd? Way too many, consolidating the schools is a good idea if its its done properly. Will it be done properly? Will this lead to cheaper flight training?

 

 

[planedriver]

Can't agree FT

 

Why don't you try to apply that same logic to driving schools?

 

Many local councils would love to have fewer training facilities, as it gives them more ammunition to justify closing airfields because they are no longer needed, However, developers could make good use of them.

 

It would be a good thing IF ALL who are responsible for making decisions that affect us, were pilots themselves.

 

Sadly this is not always the case.

 

Like so many politicians, it would appear that some are more interested in their back pockets, than the interests and well being of those they supposed to represent.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I'm not advocating less flying instructors, I would be advocating flying instructors organising into larger business units but watch RAA and CASA work towards the worst possible outcome: more paperwork, more overheads, more expensive training.

 

 

[Keith Page]

F_T You have missed a very big point, so hence it is quite obvious you live in the GSE.

 

What about those small schools like Roma, Longreach even see there is a small school in Cunnamulla. Those organisations service a small clientele and imagine if these people had to travel to the GSE to do their flying. Isn't RAAus for sport and recreation.

 

These remote schools the instructor is only part time as the instructor has to have another job to survive as instructing/flying is basically a hobby.

 

KP

 

 

[Keith Page]

F_T...Have a look at Mt.Isa what is there?

 

Like the pollies taking everything out of the regional and rural areas and plonking it in the GSE.

 

Like RAAus, to me, looks like things are gravitating to Canberra. Well that is a long way from Weipa.

 

While we are up there what about Mareeba and Mt. Surprise?

 

KP

 

 

[fly_tornado]

are part time instructors going to keep up with all the extra rules and regs that keep cropping into flying these days? probably not.

 

I don't think the idea of consolidating schools is about improving access to flying, its about enforcement and control.

 

 

[Keith Page]

There you have answered it, enforcement and control, that is the last thing we need.

 

Part time instructors -- I think would be more inclined to be up to date as all things flying would not be a chore as these people would read the bulletins more diligently.

 

KP

 

 

[Keith Page]

Well stick consildation up their nose.

 

KP

 

 

[Downunder]

I think the problem is that there are too many RAA schools, last time I checked it was either 140 or 170 odd? Way too many, consolidating the schools is a good idea if its its done properly. Will it be done properly? Will this lead to cheaper flight training?

It's NOT going to be cheaper if students have to travel twice as far to get to a training facility. Perhaps needing to stay overnight.

 

Or worse, they simply "give up" training altogether due to the distance....

 

 

[fly_tornado]

lets not prejudge how they are going to screw this up. There is always the opportunity for part time flying instructors, especially those with an existing client base, to join larger schools.