'Flight shaming' and the ethics of recreational flying?

[Flying Binghi]

Simple maths: there are over seven billion of us in this lifeboat.

I am using much more of its food, water, energy, etc. than the poorest people.

We are using up its resources faster than they can be produced; plundering our oceans, forests, aquifers and farmland at an unsustainable rate to meet current demand, as billions more aspire to our standard of living...

 

**********************************************************

 

Please make contact with reality.

 

A couple of centuries of burning fossil fuels has given us rapid development, but has also done much damage to the only planet we have. Why would you oppose moving back to more sustainable energy sources?

Commercial interests are voting for those green solutions.

 

 

Hmmm... Old Koreelah, when did earth become a “lifeboat” ?... if we is using boating analogy’s, I’d liken it more to a ship called Endeavour.

 

Australia has been occupied by humans for over 50,000 years. And yet, if you were to look at Australia a mere 300 years ago one could argue that the then small population of less then a million were living at the limits of Australia’s then known ‘resources’. We are now over 20 millions and also feeding and provisioning many millions more around the planet...

 

Old Koreelah, if you really believe you are using more ‘resources’ then the “poor people”, why are you doing recreational flying?

Perhaps you need to “make contact with reality”.....?

 

 

 

 

 

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[Old Koreelah]

Hmmm... Old Koreelah, when did earth become a “lifeboat” ?... if we is using boating analogy’s, I’d liken it more to a ship called Endeavour....

FB you must have missed the lessons of the Space Race, when the world watched humans trying to survive in tiny little capsules floating in the void. Their onboard resources were limited, their life-support systems had to work perfectly or they were doomed.

The same applies to our planet. We totally depend on what it gives us, plus the energy arriving from our nearby star. Relying on stores of energy laid down in the distant past must end sooner or later, Sooner if it is doing damage.

 

Cook is one of my heroes, but his ship Endeavour was nothing like our Spaceship Earth; he could catch fish as he sailed, toss his garbage overboard and forget it. He frequently made landfall to replenish his provisions, quite often stripping local, self-sufficient communities of food, a habit that led to his own demise.

 

Australia has been occupied by humans for over 50,000 years. And yet, if you were to look at Australia a mere 300 years ago one could argue that the then small population of less then a million were living at the limits of Australia’s then known ‘resources’. We are now over 20 millions and also feeding and provisioning many millions more around the planet...

All true, but you ignore the fact that this impressive feat of feeding far more than our current 24 million people is totally dependent on imported fuel and has resulted in massive damage to our farmland, forests, rivers and aquifers. Australia has the worst record in the world for the extinction of our unique wildlife.

 

Old Koreelah, if you really believe you are using more ‘resources’ then the “poor people”, why are you doing recreational flying?

Perhaps you need to “make contact with reality”.....?

 

Well done, FB. Finally we get back to the original focus of this thread.

Guilty as charged. I will plead for leniency on the basis that there are worse offenders than me.

[Litespeed]

Sometimes .......

 

It is like trying to tell a Wife beater, it is wrong and he should stop......obvious to the rest of us.

[Old Koreelah]

It will take 10 to 20 years to dig our economies out of the Coronavirus hole...

 

PM I fear you may be right about the economic impact of the current pandemic, but maybe it's doing us a favour: the Corona virus may be little worse than normal influenza outbreaks, but the global reaction might be a good practise run for future fights against more lethal antibiotic-resistant killer bugs.

 

...We will quickly find out the most efficient power sources as we move away from 'first world' problems of environmental one-upmanship.

The most efficient power sources are being installed at a rapid rate and I sure hope 'first world' environmental one-upmanship continues, instead of the much less productive military one-upmanship that dominated previous centuries.

[Flying Binghi]

Sometimes .......

 

It is like trying to tell a Wife beater, it is wrong and he should stop......obvious to the rest of us.

 

Yeah... though nowadays yer get called an islamaphobe if yer point out the obvious..?

 

 

 

 

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[Flying Binghi]

FB you must have missed the lessons of the Space Race, when the world watched humans trying to survive in tiny little capsules floating in the void. Their onboard resources were limited, their life-support systems had to work perfectly or they were doomed.

The same applies to our planet. We totally depend on what it gives us, plus the energy arriving from our nearby star. Relying on stores of energy laid down in the distant past must end sooner or later, Sooner if it is doing damage.

 

Cook is one of my heroes, but his ship Endeavour was nothing like our Spaceship Earth; he could catch fish as he sailed, toss his garbage overboard and forget it. He frequently made landfall to replenish his provisions, quite often stripping local, self-sufficient communities of food, a habit that led to his own demise.

 

 

All true, but you ignore the fact that this impressive feat of feeding far more than our current 24 million people is totally dependent on imported fuel and has resulted in massive damage to our farmland, forests, rivers and aquifers. Australia has the worst record in the world for the extinction of our unique wildlife.

 

 

 

Well done, FB. Finally we get back to the original focus of this thread.

Guilty as charged. I will plead for leniency on the basis that there are worse offenders than me.

 

- Re “stores of energy”. Recommended search is for methane hydrate. China, Japan, et all, have major research drilling programs under way. We ain’t running out of carbon fuels anytime soon. About 10’000 years supply according to some accounts...

 

 

- The ship Endeavour was an enterprise of discovery and progress - it were not about Cook as such.

 

 

- Re “imported fuel” Yep, idiotic in the extreme. Australia could produce all the fuel it needed and yet we import it..

 

 

Old Koreelah, if you believe you are doing something wrong then I ask the question why are you still doing it ?

 

 

 

 

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[Flying Binghi]

China's demand for powerand the infrastructure as well as trade wars, etc are causing it to reduce its renewables agenda.. However, one or two countries doing something does not mean it is the right thing to do. Especially China, which manipulates and has an authoritarian system of government.

 

In the UK and Europe, the picture is vastly different... The move to renewables is real and after the investment in infrastructure, the price of generating renewable electricity is reducing. There are RECs (Retail Electricity Companies, I think) that are sprining up that provide renewable energy. Obviously, they can't guarantee every unit of electricity that comes down the wire is generated from renewables. but for every unit we consume, they buy futures from renewable energy is I think how it works. The main producers are coming on stream as well. These are growing rapidly, so the consumer is voting.

 

Yes, renewable energy isn't cheap at the moment.. Economies of scale are a big thing here.. But, using the argument that it aint cheap, then little technolgical progress would be made at all.. We could still get around with a horse and cart... not too many around now. Electric cars are expensive at the minute compared to their ICE counterparts, but I am betting in 20 years or so, ICE based cars will be relics and out great grandkids will be asking why it took so long to make the change on a mass scale.

 

Also, of you are going to claim world comparison - compare the world - not just China and India. Even the US are shying away from coal. China has or is funding the vast majority of new coal power - it is not new power from all sources of which the rest of the world are moving to.

 

Also, the IMF and world bank are forecasting Aussie coal prices to decline or hold steady in to the future.. Coal Prices Forecast: Long Term, 2018 to 2030 | Data and Charts - knoema.com. The underlying price (smoothed for short term volatility) seems to have remained much the same since about 2005.. There has been a drop recenlty, but this is attributeed to COVIT-19. The point is, like oil, there will always be a need, but people are moving away from it for better alternatives.

 

?... where to start?..?

 

Jerry_Atrick, Dunno where yer get your info from though the only reason China is building coal fired power plants is because it is the cheapest reliable power there is at this time. Same reason for India and many other countries around the world. Plus the so-called ‘renewable’ energy is Not reliable energy.

 

Re cars and horses: The car that gave mobility to the mass’s, the self propelled model T Ford, were invented about 100 years after the first self propelled vehicle were invented.

Jerry_Atrick, To align your car analogy with the current thinking about power, how soon after the first vehicle were invented 200 years ago should they have started shooting the horses - 1 year, 20 years, 120 years...?

 

Re the USA coal situation: At this time they is mainly on cheaper gas. If coal were cheaper they’d be on it. Much like Europe is now kept afloat with Russian gas.

 

Re coal prices: I suspect once methane hydrate starts getting piped world coal prices will plummet. Then good old Oz will think its throats been cut...?

 

Jerry_Atrik, I suggest you do some research thats not from the ABC media. Here’s a start: This Mile-Wide Hole Could Revolutionize Pakistan's Economy

 

...Oh, and take note of all that ‘China Bank’ advertising around Oz international airports. You got a coal project that suites their political agenda, i.e., that don’t support their enemy India, well they got the funds for you.....?

 

 

 

 

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[Old Koreelah]

- Re “stores of energy”. Recommended search is for methane hydrate. China, Japan, et all, have major research drilling programs under way. We ain’t running out of carbon fuels anytime soon. About 10’000 years supply according to some accounts...

FB I fear you still don't get it; who said we're running out of fossil fuel? The issue is the problems caused by our over-dependence on coal, oil and gases.

 

- The ship Endeavour was an enterprise of discovery and progress...

And a great boost to human progress, just like the current boom in renewable energy.

 

- Re “imported fuel” Yep, idiotic in the extreme. Australia could produce all the fuel it needed and yet we import it..

I totally agree. Many of the world's best brains say this country could be a clean energy superpower.

 

Old Koreelah, if you believe you are doing something wrong then I ask the question why are you still doing it ?

I guess a few church leaders have asked that question of wayward priests...

 

 

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[Flying Binghi]

FB I fear you still don't get it; who said we're running out of fossil fuel? The issue is the problems caused by our over-dependence on coal, oil and gases.

 

 

And a great boost to human progress, just like the current boom in renewable energy.

 

 

I totally agree. Many of the world's best brains say this country could be a clean energy superpower.

 

 

I guess a few church leaders have asked that question of wayward priests...

 

 

.

- Interesting that you compare yourself to a church - Old Koreelah, yer not part of a cult are ya?..?

 

 

- Who are these “best brains” that say Australia “could be a clean energy superpower” ?..?

 

- “...problems caused by our over-dependence on coal, oil and gases” Considering Australia has all that in abundance, the ‘problem’ for Oz is self inflicted by Greeny political stupidity. As to other matters, I think Chauvel’s thoughts on his Mid East wanderings with the Light Horse cover it well - We shouldn’t be there and leave em to it...?

 

 

Anyways, rest period is over - back to burning carbons..?

 

 

 

 

.

[Old Koreelah]

- Interesting that you compare yourself to a church...

No, I didn't. Strange that you should see it that way.

 

- Who are these “best brains” that say Australia “could be a clean energy superpower” ?...

https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/from-pariah-to-green-energy-superpower-20190927-p52vdr

https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/News/can-australia-be-energy-superpower

https://energy.anu.edu.au/news-events/australias-pathway-becoming-energy-superpower

https://bze.org.au/research/renewable-energy-superpower/

 

- “...problems caused by our over-dependence on coal, oil and gases” Considering Australia has all that in abundance, the ‘problem’ for Oz is self inflicted by Greeny political stupidity...

Where is all this oil we have in abundance?

The main stupidity was the Howard government selling North West Shelf gas for a song, denying our own manufacturers access.

 

...I think Chauvel’s thoughts on his Mid East wanderings with the Light Horse cover it well - We shouldn’t be there and leave em to it...?

At last: something we can agree on!

[Jerry_Atrick]

?... where to start?..?

 

Jerry_Atrick, Dunno where yer get your info from though the only reason China is building coal fired power plants is because it is the cheapest reliable power there is at this time. Same reason for India and many other countries around the world. Plus the so-called ‘renewable’ energy is Not reliable energy.

 

I think if you check other articles from the same source, the FT. Rueters and the Washington post, you will find the info you need. I did say it was cheaper than renewables... but gave the reasons they cited.. Remember, coal has been used to power industry for a very long time.. renewables less so and it will require investment to get it reliable - yes; it will require a mass take up to get it to the economies of scale to bring down the price... Just search Chin Coal Power Generation and you should be able to find plenty of non-ABC (or BBC) articles on the matter.

 

 

Re cars and horses: The car that gave mobility to the mass’s, the self propelled model T Ford, were invented about 100 years after the first self propelled vehicle were invented.

Jerry_Atrick, To align your car analogy with the current thinking about power, how soon after the first vehicle were invented 200 years ago should they have started shooting the horses - 1 year, 20 years, 120 years...?

Thanks for illustrating my point.. Let me reiterate.. New fangled technology always is more expensive when it first comes out.. As further investment progresses coupled with econcomies of scale take effect, the init prices are cheaper. But I think you know this as the India article you cite below is behing a BBG paywall.. and most people won't subscribe to BBG unless they are in the financial services industry. Ford didn't invent the car; he invented mass production of the car.. driving prices down and making it affordable to more of the affluent class before it became affordable to the rest of the population - but thanks for reiterating my point for me.

 

Re the USA coal situation: At this time they is mainly on cheaper gas. If coal were cheaper they’d be on it. Much like Europe is now kept afloat with Russian gas.

Yes.. I was in the industry when they were building the vast amount if these in western Europe as well..Designed to last 15 years with no maintence and then decommission - which most have largely done (it was more than 15 years ago). Some were life extended because gas is still cheaper than coal.

 

 

Re coal prices: I suspect once methane hydrate starts getting piped world coal prices will plummet. Then good old Oz will think its throats been cut...?

 

 

Jerry_Atrik, I suggest you do some research thats not from the ABC media. Here’s a start: This Mile-Wide Hole Could Revolutionize Pakistan's Economy

 

...Oh, and take note of all that ‘China Bank’ advertising around Oz international airports. You got a coal project that suites their political agenda, i.e., that don’t support their enemy India, well they got the funds for you.....?

.

 

I think I addressed the personal barb - I prefer to go for the argument than then person... Also, not sure where my info has been inaccurate.. Is Europe moving further to coal or other ossil fuels (Well Germany has in the short term because of their short-sighed decison to close nukes).

 

Unfortunately, the people who control resources and governements are not very visisionary... I don't think I have ever said coal or other fssil fuels are more expensve or less reliable than renewables.. In fact I have said the opposite. However, like nuclear, maybe we are only couting the existing direct costs and the real costs are deferred... They will be picked up by future generations and will be far more expensive than the costs of getting it right now. In fact,without beng arsed doing the research, I would say insurance is the first area it will be noticed and food production in the UK will certainly be down in the following season as farmers can't plough their fields it is so wet giving less time for the crops to grow.

 

Frankly I would rather kick in an extra few pence/cents in tax to subsidise the renewal energy industry and getting it to a point where it has critical mass, and even 10% more per KW/h for it than kill our kids future... I recall smoking used to be cool...

[spacesailor]

Not all coal cost s are countable.

"Aberfan disaster - Wikipedia"

A coal mine and open cast mines, seldom repair the landscape.

spacesailor

[Marty_d]

FB I fear you still don't get it; who said we're running out of fossil fuel? The issue is the problems caused by our over-dependence on coal, oil and gases.

 

 

And a great boost to human progress, just like the current boom in renewable energy.

 

 

I totally agree. Many of the world's best brains say this country could be a clean energy superpower.

 

 

I guess a few church leaders have asked that question of wayward priests...

 

 

.

 

deleted...mod

Edited March 22, 2020 by robinsm

[Jerry_Atrick]

My sentiments, exactly,,

[Flying Binghi]

Hmmm... offer up some scrutiny of the ‘evidence’, and what do yer get...?

 

 

 

 

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[Flying Binghi]

Seems call-sign Jerry_Atrick is angling to escape to shallower waters so will attend to first...?

 

I think if you check other articles from the same source, the FT. Rueters and the Washington post, you will find the info you need. I did say it was cheaper than renewables... but gave the reasons they cited..

 

Jerry_Atrick, instead of a hand-wave to other articles, perhaps yer should provide the references/links to the “info you need”

 

 

Remember, coal has been used to power industry for a very long time.. renewables less so and it will require investment to get it reliable - yes; it will require a mass take up to get it to the economies of scale to bring down the price...

 

Actually, coals use in industry only goes back two thousand years or so. Renewables have been used in industry for far, far longer...

 

“...”A widening ripple of cut forests” spread outward. There were complaints of wood shortage even in Gaul. Coal was used only where no wood was available. Pliny reports that coal was burnt in Campania to make bronze because of the wood shortage there...” via page 148, “Environmental Problems of the Greeks and Romans”, J. Donald Hughes 1994.

 

 

it will require a mass take up to get it to the economies of scale to bring down the price... Just search Chin Coal Power Generation and you should be able to find plenty of non-ABC (or BBC) articles on the matter...

 

A hand wave to “economies of scale” and I “should be able to find” don’t work for me.

Jerry_Atrick, you is making the claims - You can back up yer own claims..?

 

 

Nuf for now, the day beckons...?

 

 

 

 

.

[Tucano]

I feel no shame - if its turning is burning

[Jerry_Atrick]

With respect to Europe moving away from coal, as part of the energy it produces, the following should give you some stats: Shedding light on energy on the EU: What do we produce in the EU?

 

An interesting article on the distortions of the marlet that have led to over investment in coal generation in China is here: China overinvested in coal power: Here’s why | VOX, CEPR Policy Portal

 

Global use of renewables is inceasing: Wind & Solar Share in Electricity Production Data | Enerdata

 

One of the plethora of articles I can't be fully bothered to list if you search China Coal Power Generation (using google): China coal-fired power capacity still rising, bucking global trend: study in which it states,

"The increase followed a 2014-2016 “permitting surge” by local governments aiming to boost growth while formerly suspended projects have also been restarted, Global Energy Monitor said. In the rest of the world, coal-fired power capacity fell 8.1 GW over the same period. "

 

Admittedly, not a dramatic fall, but given China is funding a lot of the new global plants.. oh and they have vast reserves of coal.. I wonder why they would want to do that in the face of a slowing economy?

 

Even in the US, which seems to take prode in polluting the earth, the proportion of renewables is expanding as part of its total energy mix: Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

The articles you have offered are about how cheap and reliable coal is.. yes.. I do not disagree.. My statement is basically, because China is doing something, does not make it right... Nor does it mean that coal is increasing on a global scale (or probably better put, globally, there is a push to use renewables over ofssil). I think I also said there will always be a demand for coal (and other fossils)..

 

The aritcles you have offered up have stated the obvious - it is still cheaper and more reliable. Tell me though.. as economies of scale kick in, how do unit costs not fall?

 

Let's also not forget the other things at play... Rnrgry production requires massive investment and it will take time before businesses and governments will decomission something before they have seen a return from it. My guess is that is also distorting the speed of transition.

 

BTW - you may think the ABC is biased as it doesn' report in accordance with your views.. I believe James Murdoch is distaincing himself from his father's empire because of the bias and manipulative reporting it uses to support it and its advertisers' agendas.. I'll take the ABC any day (as well as the BBC for that matter) over their carp..

 

Now I am happy for you to debunk what I have said...

 

I am also happy to concede investment in ESG sectors has been a bumpr ride for investors - as any emerging industrys are... But the CFA are intorducing ESG principles into their syllabus as it is a growing "sector" where there is demand. People, including investors, are startting to vote (and was it instituional shareholders who protested to BHP to remove themselves from coal lobbys?? Can't recall)... Needless to say, the trend is away from fossil fuels.. Those not entrenched are responding..

 

As for recreational flying, it is a small footprint, but agile companies are responding to the challenge. Pipestrel being one encument.. bit even up the GA food chain, they are working on alternative energy sources: ZeroAvia flies hydrogen fuel cell Piper Matrix - FLYER

[Flying Binghi]

With respect to Europe moving away from coal, as part of the energy it produces, the following should give you some stats: Shedding light on energy on the EU: What do we produce in the EU?

 

An interesting article on the distortions of the marlet that have led to over investment in coal generation in China is here: China overinvested in coal power: Here’s why | VOX, CEPR Policy Portal

 

Global use of renewables is inceasing: Wind & Solar Share in Electricity Production Data | Enerdata

 

One of the plethora of articles I can't be fully bothered to list if you search China Coal Power Generation (using google): China coal-fired power capacity still rising, bucking global trend: study in which it states,

"The increase followed a 2014-2016 “permitting surge” by local governments aiming to boost growth while formerly suspended projects have also been restarted, Global Energy Monitor said. In the rest of the world, coal-fired power capacity fell 8.1 GW over the same period. "

 

Admittedly, not a dramatic fall, but given China is funding a lot of the new global plants.. oh and they have vast reserves of coal.. I wonder why they would want to do that in the face of a slowing economy?

 

Even in the US, which seems to take prode in polluting the earth, the proportion of renewables is expanding as part of its total energy mix: Electricity in the U.S. - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

The articles you have offered are about how cheap and reliable coal is.. yes.. I do not disagree.. My statement is basically, because China is doing something, does not make it right... Nor does it mean that coal is increasing on a global scale (or probably better put, globally, there is a push to use renewables over ofssil). I think I also said there will always be a demand for coal (and other fossils)..

 

The aritcles you have offered up have stated the obvious - it is still cheaper and more reliable. Tell me though.. as economies of scale kick in, how do unit costs not fall?

 

Let's also not forget the other things at play... Rnrgry production requires massive investment and it will take time before businesses and governments will decomission something before they have seen a return from it. My guess is that is also distorting the speed of transition.

 

BTW - you may think the ABC is biased as it doesn' report in accordance with your views.. I believe James Murdoch is distaincing himself from his father's empire because of the bias and manipulative reporting it uses to support it and its advertisers' agendas.. I'll take the ABC any day (as well as the BBC for that matter) over their carp..

 

Now I am happy for you to debunk what I have said...

 

I am also happy to concede investment in ESG sectors has been a bumpr ride for investors - as any emerging industrys are... But the CFA are intorducing ESG principles into their syllabus as it is a growing "sector" where there is demand. People, including investors, are startting to vote (and was it instituional shareholders who protested to BHP to remove themselves from coal lobbys?? Can't recall)... Needless to say, the trend is away from fossil fuels.. Those not entrenched are responding..

 

As for recreational flying, it is a small footprint, but agile companies are responding to the challenge. Pipestrel being one encument.. bit even up the GA food chain, they are working on alternative energy sources: ZeroAvia flies hydrogen fuel cell Piper Matrix - FLYER

 

OK, I think we can condense this back down again..?

 

Jerry_Atrick, one of the links you provided is a newspaper article that references the important sounding “Global Energy Monitor”. A 10 second google and I find:

 

“...Global Energy Monitor (originally named CoalSwarm) began in 2007 as an informal effort by journalists and activists...”

 

And yet here we have an article quoting “CoalSwarm” Satellite intelligence shows China in a vast rollout of coal-fired power stations

 

“...China is building coal-fire power stations, many of them previously thought to have been cancelled by order of the central government, at a far greater rate than previously estimated, according to analysis of satellite imagery and official documents...”

 

Seems to me there are 10’s of thousands of news article written by ‘journalists and activists’ stating what they wish were happening rather then what is really happening.

 

Reality, in the next few months there will be more new coal fired power plants opened around the world then Australia has closed to date, or will ever close in the foreseeable future.

...until we go nuclear that is..?

 

 

I believe James Murdoch is distaincing himself from...

 

 

‘Reality’ is the word yer looking for. James Murdock also believes the recent Australian bush fires were caused by global warming.

He should stick to something he knows, like the brain fart entertainment business.....

 

 

 

 

 

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[Jerry_Atrick]

Is that really the best you could come up with?

 

If you can disprove the source's data, then happy to hear it, otherwise, a thin attack is, well, not holding well..Let's face it, it's not like other media organisations aren't activists in their camp...

 

Personally, I am happy for Aus to become nuclear - I had to leave Aus as I was (and am about to reenter) nulcear generation... Could happily see out my retirement..

 

Oh yeah - China - forgot about that.. Reading one of the articles above, despite adding something like 75% of total global elecrticy generation, coal as a global geneation source fell (not much, from memory c. 8GW/h).. So yeah, according to you, China is the measure of what the world is doing... I can't reconcile that..

 

And I think you are mixing up the terms of reality and propaganda.... But, hey.. I never said even today one can't amke a quick bick from coal.. But in the long term, coking coal will still probably be around in the RoW (except emerging markets, which like to play catch up)...

 

Oh, and you forgot to mention if you read the articles I provided, a lot of the new [edit] Chinese [/edit] plants are largely idle and are being build for short term political aims to distort the market to provide jobs....

 

edited...mod

Edited March 22, 2020 by robinsm

[Flying Binghi]

Is that really the best you could come up with?

 

If you can disprove the source's data, then happy to hear it, otherwise, a thin attack is, well, not holding well..Let's face it, it's not like other media organisations aren't activists in their camp...

Personally, I am happy for Aus to become nuclear - I had to leave Aus as I was (and am about to reenter) nulcear generation... Could happily see out my retirement..

 

Oh yeah - China - forgot about that.. Reading one of the articles above, despite adding something like 75% of total global elecrticy generation, coal as a global geneation source fell (not much, from memory c. 8GW/h).. So yeah, according to you, China is the measure of what the world is doing... I can't reconcile that..

 

And I think you are mixing up the terms of reality and propaganda.... But, hey.. I never said even today one can't amke a quick bick from coal.. But in the long term, coking coal will still probably be around in the RoW (except emerging markets, which like to play catch up)...

 

Oh, and you forgot to mention if you read the articles I provided, a lot of the new [edit] Chinese [/edit] plants are largely idle and are being build for short term political aims to distort the market to provide jobs....

 

Over to you squire to use real data rather than anecdotal carp...

 

?........?

 

 

Well, what to say.............

 

It were only a few years back that China were trying to buy up all of Australia’s coal mines that it could lay its hands on. Them Astute Chinese wouldn’t be trying to line up a supply of coal resources unless their long term aim were to use it..?

 

China is the worlds largest manufacturer of solar panels and wind power generators - if it were a make jobs agenda they had then they would build panels and wind generators and install them. China can ‘buy’ their stuff at a third of the price we’d pay for it, instead, China went coal... ?

 

I do note that when I went to the big hardware shop the other day most of the goods for sale were made in China - Made by using cheap coal power and then shipped to Australia using big diesel/oil powered cargo ships..?

Australian manufacturers now have mega power bills that means apart from all the other anti competitive things to be put up with there is now the cost of power to add to products.

What’s left of Oz manufacturing is being destroyed by the green idiot agenda to close down our cheap and reliable coal power stations. And yet, we buy the same products out of China that have been made using cheap and reliable coal.....?

 

And then there’s India going coal power in a far bigger way.....

 

 

 

 

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[Flying Binghi]

Meanwhile, just what are they trying to achieve with them electric cars...

 

“...Germany: ...electric cars are in fact pretty bad for the climate.. ..According to a new German study, electric cars have “significantly higher CO2 emissions than diesel cars...”

 

https://notrickszone.com/2019/04/19/new-german-study-shocks-electric-cars-considerably-worse-for-climate-than-diesel-cars-up-to-25-more-co2/

 

 

 

 

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[Jerry_Atrick]

Again Bindi, show me that the rest of the world are not moving away from coal...

 

China aso has cheap and slave labuor and state subsidised (including oal) indistries...

 

I ask again, show me the numbers - like I have shown you..

 

Until then, you can "where shall we start" or "aht to say" as much as you like - you haven't proffered anything up that globally, the world is moving on... not that coal is cheaper - we know that because it's price is continually dropping in real terms..

 

And you try and discredit my sources of info??? Here's the report on notrickszone: NoTricksZone - Media Bias/Fact Check [edit]I guess Murdoch eis eyeing them as a potential takeover target ;-)

 

Don't expect too many reposnses from me.. this is becoming a waste of my time...

Edited March 21, 2020 by Jerry_Atrick

[Old Koreelah]

[Flying Binghi]

 

Old Koreelah, what’s the video got to do with this thread ?

 

 

 

 

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