701 Build Plans and Instructions

[Low_N_Slow]

Hi guys,

 

Has anyone got their plans, etc. left over after their build?

I'm willing to purchase a used set. Rather than order new.

 

 

Thanks!

[Marty_d]

51 minutes ago, Low_N_Slow said:

Hi guys,

 

Has anyone got their plans, etc. left over after their build?

I'm willing to purchase a used set. Rather than order new.

 

 

Thanks!

PM sent.

 

Although I'm quite happy to send them to you, if I was doing it over again, I'd get the 750 plans instead.  The 701 has MTOW of 500kg where the 750 has 600.

 

[Low_N_Slow]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

PM sent.

 

Although I'm quite happy to send them to you, if I was doing it over again, I'd get the 750 plans instead.  The 701 has MTOW of 500kg where the 750 has 600.

 

Hi Marty,

 

Thanks mate. Definitely keen for a 701. Suits my mission a bit better.

[walrus]

So are you going to scratch build without paying Zenith a cent?

[Blueadventures]

On 10/04/2021 at 3:30 PM, Marty_d said:

PM sent.

 

Although I'm quite happy to send them to you, if I was doing it over again, I'd get the 750 plans instead.  The 701 has MTOW of 500kg where the 750 has 600.

 

HI Marty  Is there any conditions on the purchase only to build one aircraft and not copy, duplicate or loan?  I don't know, just asking.

[spacesailor]

Isn,the first purchaser,s payment enough ?.

Hummel must have sold many hundreds of plans, possibly only half were used to build a plane, that means the plans Should be used ( as payed for ) by another builder, only once.  That is.

spacesailor

[perrynz]

Plan sets are generally serial numbered, and notated one aircraft only to be built from each set. Additionally there is often a requirement to register a transfer of plans with the manufacturer. Some manufacturers also won’t sell “off the shelf” parts for an aeroplane unless the purchaser is the registered plans owner. Hope this may help. Cheers. Perry

[spacesailor]

So we only have to inform the manufacturer of change of ownership,

Then l suppose the manufacturer  will want extra money,s be payed.

If you get the plans with a part build, and the manufacturer doesn't want to be frendly, l guess you will be in trouble.

spacesailor

[perrynz]

I wouldn’t foresee any problem, as long as it’s only one aircraft per plan set. 

[onetrack]

There's plenty of cheap and satisfactory kitplane plans available, if you want to build from scratch - which is what you're basically doing, if you try to utilise Savannah plans secondhand.

[Marty_d]

4 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

HI Marty  Is there any conditions on the purchase only to build one aircraft and not copy, duplicate or loan?  I don't know, just asking.

I don't know, Mike, but can't see that it's relevant.  I've given away the original copies of the plan, which is my right to do as I bought them in the first place.  If the person I gave them to subsequently goes and builds a plane from them, that's nothing to do with me.

As to the manufacturer not supplying parts, it's hardly relevant with the 701 - all I've bought from Zenith are the gear/strut pickups (which can be welded by a competent person) and the wingtips / flaperon tips, which could be moulded from fibreglass/CF easily enough.  Besides, Zenith are happy enough to sell bits to anyone.  The only thing they probably won't do is provide builder advice if you're not the registered owner of the plans.

[walrus]

ONE set of plans gives you the right to ONE serial number and the right to construct ONE aircraft.

 

I am going out on a limb about this....... The purchase of a set of plans entitles you to a serial number and the right to construct one aircraft as defined by the plans as well as product support and the right to purchase components from the company that designed the aircraft and sold the plans. It also entitles you to define the aircraft you construct as a "Zenith CH701".

 

If you do not pay for your individual set of plans and instead copy a set already used by another person to construct a serialised CH701, and use them to construct an unserialised CH701 then two things will happen:

 

1. You will be a thief, a felon. You have taken someone's intellectual property without payment. it is no different from copying and selling videos and it does not matter if it is used to manufacture one aircraft or a thousand. You will be a thief.

 

2. The aircraft you produce is a bastard. it is NOT a CH701. it is NOT entitled to product support. it is NOT entitled to be registered by RAA, SAAA or CASA. Any subsequent purchaser who does due diligence won't touch it and furthermore, you won't get insurance, or if you do get a policy, it will be voided by the insurer if you try to claim.

 

I have personally seen this happen with boats cars and aircraft - its why you can rebuild an aircraft from its fireproof stainless steel data plate or a Ferrari from its log books. Any smart purchaser will walk away from a bogus product and curse you for wasting their time.

 

 

The blueprints serial number and manuals cost USD 425. If you cant afford that amount, you have no business building an aircraft in the first place.

 

I assume you are saying this all in jest.

[spacesailor]

When the plan purchaser, Does not build !, or Does not complete that build, why should the next person have to buy a new set of plans, & if those plans are bought, does that finished plane have to carry TWO serial numbers as per TWO plans registered? .

Double dipping by the manufacturer, perhaps to make their new number of plans sold, greater.

16 Hummle builders, ( on the old builders list  ) but only Two finnished as Registered flying aircraft !.

Who wants an unused set of plans, going cheap.

spacesailor

 

 

[rgmwa]

I don’t know the legalities of building from a secondhand set of numbered plans that are not in the public domain, but if you’re willing to wear the cost of building a plane then surely you can afford to buy a new set of plans to make sure you’ve got the latest version. If it also buys you factory support then it makes even more sense to not try to cut corners. 

[walrus]

You are right. If the plans haven’t been used to build an aircraft, you are free to do what you like. The new owner of the plans simply has to tell Zenith and register herself with Zenith as the new owner/builder of that serial number. Zenith ask for the serial when you buy bits from them or seek support. 

[perrynz]

Spot on Walrus.

[spacesailor]

In replay 

My 10-1103 aircraft went through at least five builders !.

Same plans for The same aircraft.

The finished product is Not the plan purchase, But the Aircraft the plan produced.

What manufacturer sells plans that are not supposed to produce a product ?.

Answer 

UNSCRUPULOUS 

And they are out out there !.

( 14 Hummel plans multiplied by four. is an awful lot of dollars ) if every one had to purchase a new plan at the change of ownership. 

I may have to get comfirmation from the Hummel !  I have sent an enquiry to the Hummel manufacturer.

No serial number required! .

spacesailor

PS  I would think that Any manufacturer would like to see their products finished! .

[perrynz]

Hey Spacesailer. You seem to be missing the point. Plans can change hands no problem, with or without a part-built aircraft, as long as there is only one finished aircraft built from that particular set of plans. A manufacturer won’t charge you for a change of plans ownership. How could they? All they are interested in is that they sell each set of plans for one aircraft build. That’s fair enough, as they spent the time and money designing it. Regarding Hummel, the set of plans that I had were certainly serial numbered. Cheers. Perry

[spacesailor]

Nice 

Is it finished? .

spacesailor

[spacesailor]

Reply to my Hummel question ,.

" The plans should stay with the aircraft and the new owner, should complete the build ".

" You do not need to get new plans or a new serial number ".

" we would like to have your information to update our records.

spacesailor

PS should tell them " the Last registered HB on RAA, 10-95. ( even thou removed, it was/ is on my registration  )

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by spacesailor
Missed a bit

[440032]

It's the unwritten rule that you don't build more than one aircraft from a set of purchased plans. The designer deserves to get some $ for all their work.

Buying secondhand but new/unused plans - well that's probably okay - if you know they have not been used to build one aircraft.

Buying secondhand used plans, that's just not proper.

I have wondered recently though, what happens when the designer is no longer around (RIP) and did not pass on the rights to the plans to another provider? Let's assume the plans are out there on the internet - and many sure are.

 

SAAA does not register aircraft. CASA does. RAAus does.

[spacesailor]

Wouldn't ' used ' but no aircraft produced !. be OK as it conforms to what you desire. LoL

But seriously, if one manufacturer said "  to build ONE aircraft "

Then when ten or more builders have failed, number eleven builds that ONE aircraft, it has produced, just what is stipulated.

Hopefully we keep using up, All those surplus plans to make Another flying aircraft.

spacesailor

 

[Marty_d]

18 hours ago, walrus said:

ONE set of plans gives you the right to ONE serial number and the right to construct ONE aircraft.

 

I am going out on a limb about this....... The purchase of a set of plans entitles you to a serial number and the right to construct one aircraft as defined by the plans as well as product support and the right to purchase components from the company that designed the aircraft and sold the plans. It also entitles you to define the aircraft you construct as a "Zenith CH701".

 

If you do not pay for your individual set of plans and instead copy a set already used by another person to construct a serialised CH701, and use them to construct an unserialised CH701 then two things will happen:

 

1. You will be a thief, a felon. You have taken someone's intellectual property without payment. it is no different from copying and selling videos and it does not matter if it is used to manufacture one aircraft or a thousand. You will be a thief.

 

2. The aircraft you produce is a bastard. it is NOT a CH701. it is NOT entitled to product support. it is NOT entitled to be registered by RAA, SAAA or CASA. Any subsequent purchaser who does due diligence won't touch it and furthermore, you won't get insurance, or if you do get a policy, it will be voided by the insurer if you try to claim.

 

I have personally seen this happen with boats cars and aircraft - its why you can rebuild an aircraft from its fireproof stainless steel data plate or a Ferrari from its log books. Any smart purchaser will walk away from a bogus product and curse you for wasting their time.

 

 

The blueprints serial number and manuals cost USD 425. If you cant afford that amount, you have no business building an aircraft in the first place.

 

I assume you are saying this all in jest.

There's a lot of talk about intellectual property and making sure the designer gets his dollar.  Not to mention some misleading information about not being able to register the aircraft with RA-AUS.

 

I think you're all kind of missing the point with this aircraft.

 

This is not in any way a piece of technology that needs its intellectual property rights protected for the company to maintain a competitive advantage.  It was designed almost 50 years ago and has been copied by every man and his dog, as anyone who flies a Savannah will know.  It's been made redundant by the 750 and the Cruzer in any case, and by the way, the designer just died.

 

So no, I can't see that Zenith will be too pissed off about someone getting a second hand plan instead of buying it from the factory.  I don't think that any prospective buyer in the future will give a toss that the builder didn't buy the plans from the factory.

 

I also don't think that the recipient of the plans deserves to be called a "thief".   I paid for the plans in the first place and I willingly gave them away.  Other people here on this site have helped me with parts and materials.  So let's all just take a bit of a chill pill regarding the absolute letter of the law and remember we're all reasonable human beings who help one another.

[spacesailor]

Thanks Marty-d

I agree that too much has been placed on interlectual rights,  as a mater of fact a gorilla or similar has had its photo taking Rights removed by the courts,

After an organisation said it supposedly had 'interlectual ' rights. After the animal took a selfy.

At least one manufacturer ( Hummel Aviation LLC ) has said they don,t mind how many times their plan is handed down, if it produces One aircraft.

SHOULD I ASK.

Can we build as a team more than one aircraft. (  with extra payment ),

I remember Jabiru was being built as a training aid at a college in Sydney, finished plane then sold.

I don,t know of arrangement by Jabiru about renumeration .

spacesailor

 

 

[walrus]

Marty, of course you aren’t a thief if you have paid for the plans. You can do with them what you like and give them to whoever you want. 

 

However intellectual property law is perfectly clear. Yes, you can copy the 701 design but if you do it, you can’t call the resulting aircraft a 701. A 701 has a factory registered serial number. You could call it a CH701 replica or suchlike but it isn’t genuine without its own factory serial number.

 

‘’To put it another way, the recipe for red wine has been known for hundreds of years, but try making your own and labelling it “Penfold Grange” and see what happens to you if you try to sell it. It’s OK to drink it at home as “Penfold Grange” but not to pass it off in public as the genuine article. Yes, people even try. 

 

‘’I’ve seen this happen with yachts - quite expensive ones, copied from xeroxed plans. As soon as it becomes public that the boat is a rip off of someone else’s design, no matter how good a copy, it’s immediately an orphan - no insurance and it’s worthless. I have seen this happen with my own eyes. A guy bought a yacht that he was told was an “XYZ 35”. He had a few problems and changes he wanted to fix, he called the designer and they had no record of the craft construction. They cut him loose on the spot. He couldn’t get insurance, couldn’t keep it in a marina and the last I saw was when it was stripped and the hull burnt.

 

‘’To put it another way, if you build from xeroxed plans, the result is no different in law from a fake Louis Vuitton handbag and if the owner of the IP objects, it could be seized. As far as airworthiness, AD’s etc. are concerned, the owner is on their own legally because the designer has absolutely no duty of care to them whatsoever.

 

I kid you not about  Ferraris, Lamborghinis and other exoticars. There is a huge industry in building fakes. If you want to buy a second hand one you need to check with the factory to ensure it’s history matches what you’ve been told and you need to have the original service books.

 

‘Copyright lasts for at least 15 years after the death of the designer.