Tomo Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Pic from the Bundy airshow... everything is stowed away underneath by the look of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted September 18, 2011 Author Share Posted September 18, 2011 Article: probe focuses on part that may have come off plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Read what a well respected aviation writer, and friend of the deceased pilot has to say about this incident: http://airbum.com/BlogOn.html Old Man Emu 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 That was an interesting read OME...........................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 If the tab was part detached it would be enough to cause the situation that occurred. You wouldn't need anything else wrong. Nev Result of a trim tab failure on another racing Mustang in 1998, but luckily without the tragic outcome of the Reno accident. http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html rgmwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Result of a trim tab failure on another racing Mustang in 1998, but luckily without the tragic outcome of the Reno accident.http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html rgmwa Interesting. There's several points of photographic evidence that suggest the accident was a similar occurrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Result of a trim tab failure on another racing Mustang in 1998, but luckily without the tragic outcome of the Reno accident.http://www.warbird.com/voodoo.html rgmwa In that crash, 10 g's is suggested, the aircraft pitched up, 10 g's is suggested and the pilot was unconscious, coming to when the aircraft had reached 9000' The impact of g forces could be the reason the pilot is not visible in this crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 I have just seen some of the freeze frames of the crash.http://news.ninemsn.com.au/glanceview/190057/air-show-crash-inflicts-mass-injuries.glance One of the pics shows the side on view of the plane- No pilot is visible. Is it possible he succumbed to G forces well before the incident? The impact pick is shocking. Frame 4 is a very telling photo! I think the absence of the pilot is more likely to be G-Force related than the other theory of a heart attack. He did call a Mayday after all. And, if a heart attack was involved how does that bring on a disfunctioning control surface? Does the tailwheel in the p51 retract with the mains? In the photo purported to be just before impact the tailwheel is out... Could mean he had dumped the gear in attempt to wash speed? I'm sure someone can prob explain better An interesting observation Hongie. I'm thinking the same: the pilot tried everything he could, probably extending the gear to slow the aircraft. I don't think he had a heart attack, I suspect he leaned forward to try and hold the stick. Imagine winding the trim all the way forward and back at top speed, the stick forces would have been immense. Judging by the way the plane was flying, I think someone was fighting those controls all the way down.Well at least that's how I will remember Jimmy Leeward. Well said, fly_tornado. That is probably how we should all remember this courageous pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 Interesting. There's several points of photographic evidence that suggest the accident was a similar occurrence. At least in that instance, the pilot was able to sell his plane. Very sadly, Jimmy Leeward did not have the same chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted September 18, 2011 Share Posted September 18, 2011 A lot of the video has been taken off YouTube, but this one shows the savage pull up and loop. I don't have time to post much more at the moment. Will do so tonight. In the meantime, look at this video on YouTube: "UFO at Reno races". http://youtu.be/-hgtDz1HJvY By the way, there is no UFO. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 OK. Here's what has been said in private conversations we had with some experienced aerobatic pilots form the US of A. When these planes are racing at these speeds, the pilot is pushing the stick full forward with all his strength. He would also have full nose down trim. In this case, the trim tab failed. The pilot would not be able to keep enough push on the stick, and it would kick back all the way. The result of the stick coming all the way back would be to cause the plane to go vertical. At race speds, that change of direction would be very rapid, and the G force resulting would be massive. 10G's is the number being kicked around, and that's a reasonable estimate. The pilot blacks out due to excessive G force. The excessive G force causes the tailwheel to unlock and fall. The plane keeps going up at full engine revs, and with up elevator and that's the start of a loop. As the speed washes off, it goes over the top of the loop and continues down and around. The pilot, still unconscious, slumps down and goes out of sight. The plane continues through the loop manoeuvre, but hits the ground before it can level itself out. Perhaps if the top of the loop had been higher, the plane would have hit on the infield and only the pilot would have been lost. Perhaps it might have leveled out and then entered another loop before crashing on the other side of the field. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. I would class this as an unavoidable accident, in the sense that no human action gave rise to it. I'm sure that when the pieces of the tailplane are put back together, the cause will be revealed as being the failure of some part of the trim tab hinge. Was the plane unsafe before the flight? I strongly doubt it. I'm sure the plane would have been fussed over like a new-born babe, and then some. Will this tragic incident kill off the Reno Air Races? I doubt it. If it does, then Society will have to seriously consider killing off any and all activities involving machines and humans travelling at speed. Old Man Emu 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I would class this as an unavoidable accident, in the sense that no human action gave rise to it. I'm sure that when the pieces of the tailplane are put back together, the cause will be revealed as being the failure of some part of the trim tab hinge ...which needs to be checked and if necessary between races - these aircraft are doing things repeatedly in following a set pattern; maintenance requirements are no different to any other form of high speed racing - super critical on safety related items. Someone was to blame here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinfrost Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 What sort of harness do these guys use. I would have thought a 4 point pulled tight would only let the head flop around but not disappear from view after black out even with theGs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Good point Kevin, but you do sag forward, head down, and as Major said the seat back could have broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryon Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 The other thing to consider is the modified canopy. The pilot would be sitting lower than normal because of the canopy and he may be slumped just below the canopy rail where we cannot see him The plane was extensively modified (see here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44569068/ns/us_news-life/) so I would assume that the seat position had changed as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Turbo and kfrost... You took the words right out of my mouth. It is strange that the pilot disappeared completely from view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Dunno, but man that looked like a tonne of G in the pull up..I wonder if that was induced by something other than the pilot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 One of the accounts I read of the previous pilot who had a trim tab fail in a mustang and had a 10g pull up described waking up with his head between his knees. That said, he also reported that he wasn't wearing shoulder straps. That in itself seemed strange to me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 One of the accounts I read of the previous pilot who had a trim tab fail in a mustang and had a 10g pull up described waking up with his head between his knees. That said, he also reported that he wasn't wearing shoulder straps. That in itself seemed strange to me..... There are always people who want to avoid safety regulations, even to the point of presenting a machine for inspection with the correct equipment then pulling it out afterwards, and not strapping on helmets because they don't believe in them etc. In the early days of motor racing when seat harnesses were just coming in, one of Australia's top Holden drivers loudly argued that harnesses could trap you in a car and kill you. Within a couple of months he rolled his car, was thrown out and the car rolled on top of him, killing him and the argument. Most safety harnesses are five point, with one strap between the legs to prevent "submarining" where certain forces pull the body down away from the shoulder straps and through the waist belt. Kinetic energy is a weird thing, sometimes totally unpredictable, but at this stage we just don't have enough information to know if the harness played any part in this accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44569068/ns/us_news-life/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Turboplanner and Cficare, Lighten up and book tickets to the Reno Air Races for Cxxxx sake ! These are unlimited highly modified experimental raceplanes. By the sound of it you would expect to have all top-fuel drag cars, Furmula one race cars , highly modified rally cars, and all those raceing at Bathurst shortly banned completely. Get a grip, this was a freak racing accident and the first spectator fatality recorded in the history of the National Championship air-races since they started back in 1929. And by the way, don't even bother booking to fly on a commercial airliner...they break occasionally also.................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I would be there with bells on, and probably will one day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Turboplanner and Cficare, Lighten up and book tickets to the Reno Air Races for Cxxxx sake ! These are unlimited highly modified experimental raceplanes. By the sound of it you would expect to have all top-fuel drag cars, Furmula one race cars , highly modified rally cars, and all those raceing at Bathurst shortly banned completely. Get a grip, this was a freak racing accident and the first spectator fatality recorded in the history of the National Championship air-races since they started back in 1929. And by the way, don't even bother booking to fly on a commercial airliner...they break occasionally also.................................................Maj... Read what we are saying, we are not suggesting banning anything; one of the Top Fuel guys is a friend of mine, and he sets up vehicles for up to 540 km/hr which have to remain safe ON THE GROUND. He checks EVERYTHING before a race meet, and replaces any item which is remotely questionable, and contributes to ANDRA's excellent safety record. F1 racing is the same, you don't show up with something which has not been engineered and tested at those speeds. It wasn't always so, but F1 got their act together, and these days normal expectation for a driver is to be able to get a full career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 And by the way, don't even bother booking to fly on a commercial airliner...they break occasionally also.................................................Maj... Maj! You are scaring people!! I have four commercial flights booked over the next three weeks, two domestic and two international. And, oh, by the way, I am also booked to travel in a Piper Pacer on Thursday and a Piper Cub early next week. Life is full of risk. The key is all about minimising those risks to an acceptable level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 My theory is the rod/wire that adjusts the trim failed and the trim tab oscillated for a while before one hinge failed and then the plane pitched up then the tab separated from the elevator and the plane snapped to the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now