New Engine Options for Jabiru –Rotax or Lycoming

[geoffreywh]

"eggenfella uses his customer base to test his products. maybe wait until a few engines have made the 1000 hour mark" So what else is new? The max hours at the moment is over 600....

 

 

[rick-p]

I don't think that is the case. Not all Lyc's and Cont's have oil available to servo the prop and electrically controlled (slip ring etc) are available. The hollow drive on the 912's is helpful. Nev

Spot on as usual Nev!

 

 

[Sloper]

My viking was $13.5 k landed.

 

regards Bruce

 

 

[jcamp]

has certification in Europe certification data is ok for all the overseas Airframes so why would engines be any different,

Looking on the D=Motor site the there is a French document which appears to be a list of engines (including a D-motor) which are approved for a particular categories of light aicraft. Not sure what the approval is for but it doesn't include Rotax, Lycoming or Continental. The D-motor site refers to registration not certification and it doesn't mention certification.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

That eggenfella Viking........There are a hell of a lot of people watching that engine with great interest including myself for the next project. I regularly surf looking for any new info bad or good and to date there is a lot more good than any bad at all. He had a bad rep from the suburu engine and i thought he gave a honest and fair account of what happened with it all but it still remains to be seen how the Viking ends up. It will be another couple of years by the time I will be ready but so far it is the goods as far as I can see. The bang for the buck cant be beat also the main core is a tried and proven engine....so was the suburu too but the let down was drive units and a few other non standard changes...I think "mr eggenfella" may have learned his lesson but we will see over time

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Jan is a great self promoter, a lot of engine manufacturers could learn from his technique.

 

 

[Gentreau]

Looking on the D=Motor site the there is a French document which appears to be a list of engines (including a D-motor) which are approved for a particular categories of light aicraft. Not sure what the approval is for but it doesn't include Rotax, Lycoming or Continental. The D-motor site refers to registration not certification and it doesn't mention certification.

Can you post a link to the page and I'll figure out what they are saying.

 

 

[jcamp]

Can you post a link to the page and I'll figure out what they are saying.

Link is:

http://d-motor1.vpweb.be/Registrations.html

 

 

[facthunter]

For a sport plane , ( and I am aware of the fact that we are talking about jabiru airframes essentially,) We tend to forget that there are some rotary ( wankel ) type engines out there which have been used for outboard racing quite successfully for years. The outboard situation is like flying in some respects as the engine operates at very high percentage of its power for extended periods. These engines are quite reliable and not a new principle. The reduction gearing necessary can be derived from sun and planetary gearing sourced from automatic transmissions and the fuel consumption is between two stroke and a four stroke figures. Nev

 

 

[skeptic36]

For a sport plane , ( and I am aware of the fact that we are talking about jabiru airframes essentially,) We tend to forget that there are some rotary ( wankel ) type engines out there which have been used for outboard racing quite successfully for years. The outboard situation is like flying in some respects as the engine operates at very high percentage of its power for extended periods. These engines are quite reliable and not a new principle. The reduction gearing necessary can be derived from sun and planetary gearing sourced from automatic transmissions and the fuel consumption is between two stroke and a four stroke figures. Nev

The T.B.O wouldn't be that great though would it?

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't think service life is a particular problem with rotaries.They can also be supercharged to almost ridiculous degrees. If they will start, they will get you home. TBO doesn't have much meaning in real context today. You can claim anything, almost and it doesn't mean "time without doing any servicing", as some expect it to do. eg the reduction gear/clutch on a 912 should be services at 400 hours.

 

A zero timed engine (essentially NEW) may have a time to total strip and inspection specified. This means that is the time it can run to before it MUST be stripped and inspected. ( Some over-runs may be allowed, in some cases "on condition" There can even be a shelf life stipulated without any need to be used at all. Commercial use engines must be stripped at a certain number of years regardless of hours run. They are also stripped/inspected if overheat/ metal particles/ overspeeding has occurred. TBO is not simple. Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

My viking was $13.5 k landed.regards Bruce

How does this price compare to a 100hp or 115hp Rotax right now?

 

 

[Gentreau]

Link is:http://d-motor1.vpweb.be/Registrations.html

What that document shows is that the engine is on the approved list for installation on a french registered microlight.

 

That simply give someone like me the right to install it and then declare a major modification to the authorities.

 

It says nothing whatsoever about the quality, only that it meets the basic power limit requirements.

 

The reason there's no mention of Rotax is because D-Motor have only published the first 2 pages of the document and the list is alphabetical.

 

 

[Yenn]

Years ago the Mazda rotaries were used in aircraft, but there was a lot of talk about seals wearing out too quickly and they seem to have died a natural death. never hear of them nowadays.

 

 

[Motif]

When I started this thread, I had no idea it would touch such a raw nerve. With over 4,400 views and rising and 6 pages of comments, the debate has been both wide ranging and vigorous.

 

My original post consisted of essentially 2 issues and I would like to expand on those issues here.

 

The first is that P.G. Aviation in Cowra, NSW has developed a firewall forward kit to suit most Jabiru aircraft and targeted at those owners who are concerned about the inherent reliability of the Jabiru designed and built engines.

 

The second and apparently quite controversial point was that this conversion meant that under the RAAus banner, category 24 registered LSA aircraft would need to be re-classified as a category 19 aircraft.

 

Jabiru Engine Reliability (perception or reality)?

 

Jabiru engines should be a great alternative to the 4 stroke Rotax and Lycoming engines. The Jab 3300 engine for instance is light, powerful, economical to run, and relatively inexpensive. The problem is that within the aviation community, there is quite a pervasive perception that the Jab engine is potentially unreliable.

 

Hyundai Excel engines can afford to be unreliable, aircraft engines cannot. Jabiru aircraft are used extensively in the Australian training fleet. Inexperienced new solo student pilots are ill equipped to handle a fully-blown engine failure on take-off at 250’ AGL.

 

But do the critics of Jab engines have a point? To get some sort of feel for the answer, I thought, rather than base an opinion on general hearsay or even personal accounts of Jab engines from a couple of pilots friends, I would let the numbers speak for themselves.

 

In the absence of any other easy way to test the water, I randomly selected 15 past RAAus magazines which mainly consisted of the more recent Sport Pilot version. The section headed “Pilot Notes” contains the accidents and incidents report for the month.

 

In the 15 issues I checked, there were 19 engine related incidents reported on the Jabiru 2200 or 3300 engine; there were 4 on the Rotax 912's; 1 on the Hirth and 1 on a Mosler. (I ignored the Rotax 2 stroke engines although surprisingly there were very few of them listed anyway. I also ignored any Jabiru engine issue caused by external incidents like water in the fuel or residue in the carb’s due to a fuel tank problem).

 

To be fair, Jabiru has about 50% of the Australian market for recreational aircraft (I believe) so you would expect to see a much higher Jabiru representation generally in the Pilot Notes section. However, much of the rest of the fleet consists of a version of the Rotax 912, so in respect to 4 stroke aircraft engines, it’s probably close to, but not quite, a 50/50 split.

 

Conversion from Category 24 to 19.

 

LSA aircraft are certified by the original manufacturer to comply with the 2004, US developed, ASTM specifications. That means that all the important bits that comprise the aircraft i.e. the airframe, the propeller and the engine, must have been certified by their respective manufacturers. You can’t modify an LSA aircraft and keep it in category 24 without the consent and certification of those mods by the original LSA manufacturer. (I understand that you can install small items such as radios, transponders etc. without getting factory approval).

 

For an example of a modification requiring a category change, I purchased an LSA aircraft with a non-certified constant speed propeller. I spoke with Lee Ungerman (now with CASA) and he advised me that if the prop was not manufactured under some certification, my currently category 24 registered aircraft would have to be re-registered in the 19 category.

 

In respect then to P.G. Aviation’s firewall forward kit for LSA Jabiru aircraft - the Jabiru airframe is certified LSA and the engine (say the Rotax 912s) is also certified under ASTM specifications. However, what would need to happen in order to permit the aircraft as a whole to remain as a category 24 aircraft, Jabiru would need to certify that the P.G. Aviation firewall forward kit with the Rotax or Lycoming engine attached, was an acceptable (and therefore LSA certifiable) modification to the LSA Jabiru.

 

Ross

 

 

[djpacro]

.... (I understand that you can install small items such as radios, transponders etc. without getting factory approval)....

Because the manufacturer is responsible for the continuing airworthiness of their LSA, the rules require the manufacturer to approve all modifications to their aircraft.

per CASA's advisory circular athttp://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/rules/1998casr/021/021c41.pdf

"all" means all.

 

 

[Motif]

Thanks djpacro, It looks like you are technically right.

 

It's a bit grim though if you install a vertical card compass 'cause it's easier to see than your alcohol compass and you have to go back to the factory for an OK. It was probably easier for CASA to put a blanket prohibition on any mod rather than specify what constitutes a minor, non-critical and therefore non-reportable mod. I suspect the rule book goes out the window thousands of times a year as new radios, strobes, landing light globes and transponders are installed in LSA's.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Thanks djpacro, It looks like you are technically right.It's a bit grim though if you install a vertical card compass 'cause it's easier to see than your alcohol compass and you have to go back to the factory for an OK. It was probably easier for CASA to put a blanket prohibition on any mod rather than specify what constitutes a minor, non-critical and therefore non-reportable mod. I suspect the rule book goes out the window thousands of times a year as new radios, strobes, landing light globes and transponders are installed in LSA's.

What is the position on the small carbon-monoxide level indicator/alarm units?

 

 

[facthunter]

On the dashboard with a good view. Nev

 

 

[JEM]

This following information may surprise some owners of Jabirus that are 55 or 24 registered & want to make an engine change.Some years ago a Flying School at Hedlow Qld, purchased several Jabirus for training & hire purposes. The Jabiru engines were failing repeatedly & the Flying School wanted to do something about this issue before someone was killed.

 

Therefore the Flying School went through the motions @ their cost of obtaining an Engineering Order to do a firewall conversion for the installation of a Rotax 912 engine , & several Jabirus including all the Flying School Jabs had an engine change from the unreliable Jab engine to the approved & trusted Rotax 912 engine.

 

It used to be said around the aviation traps that if you purchased a 2nd hand Jab with a Rotax 912 engine, then you had the best of both worlds.

 

So it goes to prove that if someone wants to go down the path of doing an engine change, there are ways & means of doing this rather than suffering the woes of an enreliable engine.

 

Every Pilot that I know that flies wants to have the assurance that if he goes up flying he will return to terra firma safely.

 

There is an old & true saying in aviation," We've never left anybody up there yet"

Hi there

 

I fly Jabiru 55-730 (airframe No 32) which was one of the Hedlow aircraft. It left the factory on 16 July 1993 fitted with a Jabiru 1600 engine which lasted until1/6/1995 when a cylinder parted from the crankcase. On 1/6/1996 the aircraft was modified as per STC 208-1 (7/12/1995) by Hedlow Air to take a 960hr Rotax 912. This Rotax was removed 17/8/1996 and replaced with another Rotax 912. In 2002 the Rotax was replaced with the solid lifter Jabiru 2200. Looking at the engine log book it seems both engine types have served this airframe well.

 

 

[pylon500]

Going from a 1600 Jab to (I guess) an 80hp rotax must have felt awesome!!

 

What was the feeling when you went back to the 2200?

 

 

[JEM]

Hi Pylon. Sorry I have only owned the aircraft since after it was fitted with the 2200. The earlier engine info came from its log book. Performance is very good with the 2200 and for me it has been 100% safe.

 

Incidentally the 55-730 log book has some even earlier notes in it recording the KFM 112 engine installations in 66-653 (aircraft #?) and VH-LOY (aircraft #5) .

 

 

[jetjr]

Its interesting about peoples perceptions and memories and then real stories eventuate

 

Thread is about new engine options for current Jabiru 4 cyl aircraft. An interesting story about training AC at Hedlow having Jabiru engines removed and 912 fitted is outlined as being a "few years ago", now we see it is related to earliest 1600 Jab engines used in 1993 (~ 20 years ago) and in fact the Rotax replacement has now been swapped back to 2200.

 

The point being that actual events often different to those stories that are swapped around.

 

 

[djpacro]

What is the position on the small carbon-monoxide level indicator/alarm units?

Probably due for an update but this CAAP on approval of mods and repairs http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/airworth/35_7.pdf has this definition:

A modification to an aeronautical product means a change to the design of that product which is not a repair.

According to the regulations, all repairs and modifications, major or minor, to Australian registered aircraft must be approved....according to the general exemption issued by CASA, limited category or experimental aircraft are exempt from this requirement.

"all" still means all.

What do you mean by small? http://www.aeromedix.com/Ultra-Low-Level-CO-Detector-CO-Experts-2014.html

 

And where do you want to put it? If some-one obscures one word of a cockpit placard then they have changed the design.

 

I have seen a CASA airworthiness inspector reject a placard because he didn't like the colour.

 

Avionics? I see too many PTT installations where a hole has been drilled at the point of maximum stress in a control stick.

 

A pity that CASA follows the European philosophy with new regs rather than the proven and sensible American ones where the FAA doesn't get involved in minor mods eg http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/74417 - AC 43.13-2B - Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Alterations

 

So, I guess that some things can be done and one could justify them as not being a modification as defined in the CAAP above and therefore no approval required. Fortunately, industry seem to be dealing with this stuff sensibly and CASA seems happy for it to continue but I am concerned that one day some-one in CASA will tackle it differently - it would be good to change the regs before we get stuck.

 

 

[gandalph]

eggenfella uses his customer base to test his products. maybe wait until a few engines have made the 1000 hour mark

Well! at last! A constructive comment from FT. Things are looking up!