Burlc Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Does anyone know how to find outcomes from RA investigated accidents. The actual one im wondering about was a fatality in Dec 2007 from Bindoon 2 people in a Sportstar 24-4148. Some say the wing came off,some say the prop came off. Anyone know more ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignition Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24415/AE2008028.pdf - This appears to be what you are looking for? Edit: On further inspection, maybe not as it doesn't appear to show anything else except for the GPS data recovery. Sorry, maybe someone else will know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burlc Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 Yeah i saw that one before. All they say is they supplied GPS results to RA Investigators,not an actual finding. There must be something available as RA have been responseable for recreational accident investigations for years but I am unable to find conclusion reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 So what can we learn if we don't know what mistakes were made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trishok Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Re outcomes from Lismore Coroner's recommendations to RAA of May, this year into the ultralight double fatality at Tatham 7th May, 2010.. The police aviation expert, Det. Inspector Hurley, told me to bring the matter to light around this time to ask if the RAA Board had made the recomended changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 There must be something available as RA have been responseable for recreational accident investigations for years but I am unable to find conclusion reports. Legally RAAus are NOT responsible for recreational accident investigations. They can only assist in preparing a report to the coroner when asked to do so by the police. Such conclusion reports as are available can be found at http://dev.raa.asn.au/safety/accident-investigations Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Legally RAAus are NOT responsible for recreational accident investigations. They can only assist in preparing a report to the coroner when asked to do so by the police.Such conclusion reports as are available can be found at http://dev.raa.asn.au/safety/accident-investigations Cheers John This was why I rolled my eyes... Nothing intended at anyone posting here but at the moment Ra-Aus are in trouble with CASA for their Rego Housekeeping... and then we come to threads like this where members (I am guessing some of you guys are members) let alone the general public somehow gets the idea that Ra-Aus is responsible for this stuff... Communication seems to have gotten lost somewhere. It seems that a lot of people assume that GA standards apply... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I guess I will say it like this.... If the membership don't know what the leadership are supposed to be doing... they could be doing the complete opposite. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Legally RAAus are NOT responsible for recreational accident investigations. They can only assist in preparing a report to the coroner when asked to do so by the police.Such conclusion reports as are available can be found at http://dev.raa.asn.au/safety/accident-investigations Cheers John Seems nothing has been published since 2005 which was under the AUF. There have been many accidents both serious and fatal since then that IF info was published we could all learn from. It can't be too hard to get the Coroner / Police reports where RAAus has helped in the enquiry. I note the ATSB publish their portion of the enquiry when they have been asked to help. Usually GPS data retrieval or instrument checks etc. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Maybe RAA should be getting the coroner's reports and summarising for their own accident records, and publish on the website? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=21754 This site gives http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2007/AAIR/aair2008028.aspx this link with reference to Sportstar 24-4148 so that may be the report you are looking for but since that link is broken perhaps the report has been available but is now lost in the ATSB archives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 We have covered this in a lot of detail on past threads. One of the weaknesses of a Forum Site is its particiants, and if someone puts up a thread heading "Another one down....." then how will we know to search for 500 accurate words on accident investigation. The State and Territory Police investigate all RA accidents (unless on the rare occasion ATSB decides to step in) RAA officials may be asked for specialist advice, but it's a Police investigation. The Police do not have the exemptions which ATSB has, so they can't take the risk airing the results of their investigation. So we do not get reports. Sometimes we can get a Coroners report if someone wades through the user unfriendly system, but that is really deciding a cause of death, rather than the cause of the accident which we, and litigators might be interested in. So there's no point griping at RAA officials - they have no more control than you do if there's an accident on your property. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The State and Territory Police investigate all RA accidents (unless on the rare occasion ATSB decides to step in) Just to clarify - I guess you meant all fatal accidents ? Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 So the result of all this is that we, the pilots, are denied the valuable lessons that might save lives, because RAAus board is afraid of litigation which might eventuate if the facts surrounding an accident were more readily accessible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimaMike08 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I read an Incident Report that was undertaken by ASRA about a gyrocopter accident earlier this year. It was very comprehensive and informative. RAA could learn a bit from ASRA in this respect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Just to clarify - I guess you meant all fatal accidents ?Cheers John I'm not sure whether it is fatal only or extends from fatal to a degree of injury, similar to a car accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 So the result of all this is that we, the pilots, are denied the valuable lessons that might save lives, because RAAus board is afraid of litigation which might eventuate if the facts surrounding an accident were more readily accessible? (a) we are denied the valuable lessons (b) The RAA board isn't the problem - the Police don't release results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seb7701 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 The police don't release the results because they basically don't release private information routinely or put it up on a website like ATSB or the state coroner does and I'm sure the reasons for this are understandable. However, I'm not (just at this second) aware of anything stopping the RAA from doing a 'Right to Information' application on an incident in the same manner in which an insurance company does with traffic crashes when they are sorting out a claim. In many cases the coroner's findings are very informative and accesible via the web, however such findings are only published where an inquest is held, which is not always the case. I do throw this one back to the RAA to have a go at. There is little info that can't be obtained with the correct consent. I do wonder what the RAA do down there sometimes.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferris Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 "I read an Incident Report that was undertaken by ASRA about a gyrocopter accident earlier this year. It was very comprehensive and informative. RAA could learn a bit from ASRA in this respect." LM while I haven't read an ASRA report I did get to read an RAA one. I would have to disagree with your comment about RAA taking a lesson from ASRA. The RAA investigators have been trained by the ATSB and were impressive in action. Their investigation was thorough and the report comprehensive. The conclusions drawn were clear and well argued. It was an informative and professionally presented document. While the incident ocurred several years ago, the Coroner has yet to release a finding, which prevents anybody associated with the accident or investigation from commenting publicly. This is a pity because there's a few lessons in it for all of us. Cheers Ferris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burlc Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think the public should be able to find out accident causes so people can learn from others mistakes, or may use a LAME instead of reading some books or using hear-say and doing specialised work on their aircraft that might affect the airworthyness of the aircraft just to save a few bucks. All our rules and regs were payed for in blood so I dont understand why RA doesnt do the same as CASA safety magazine and make public when appropiate the findings. If someone reads something and changes their mind and it saves their life then its a successfull outcome. Education is a good thing, RA cone of silence on this and other internal issues really is unnecessary in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 "I read an Incident Report that was undertaken by ASRA about a gyrocopter accident earlier this year. It was very comprehensive and informative. RAA could learn a bit from ASRA in this respect." LM while I haven't read an ASRA report I did get to read an RAA one. I would have to disagree with your comment about RAA taking a lesson from ASRA. The RAA investigators have been trained by the ATSB and were impressive in action. Their investigation was thorough and the report comprehensive. The conclusions drawn were clear and well argued. It was an informative and professionally presented document. While the incident ocurred several years ago, the Coroner has yet to release a finding, which prevents anybody associated with the accident or investigation from commenting publicly. This is a pity because there's a few lessons in it for all of us. Cheers Ferris. One of the things I have trouble getting my head around... the framework for Regional "Delegates" for Accident Investigations, Operations, Tech Support etc etc and the past history of having the same is all seems evident within Ra-Aus and its purpose... but they haven't done any of this (perhaps some sporadic activity??... Anyone??) as far as I can see for at least 5 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I do wonder what the RAA do down there sometimes.... I cannot enlighten you; we don't know what goes on in Canberra- they are not telling us- but this might be relevant: Communication A man came home from work and found his 3 children outside, still in their pyjamas, playing in the mud, with empty food boxes and wrappers strewn around garden, The door of his wife's car was open, as was the front door to the house and no sign of the dog, walking in the door, he found ...an even bigger mess. A lamp had been knocked over, the throw rug was against one wall, In the front room the TV was on loudly with the cartoon channel, the family room was strewn with toys and various items of clothing. In the kitchen, dishes filled the sink, breakfast food was spilled on the counter, the fridge door was open wide, dog food was spilled on the floor, a broken glass lay under the table, and a small pile of sand was spread by the back door. He quickly headed up the stairs, stepping over toys and more piles of clothes, looking for his wife. He was worried she might be ill, or that something serious had happened. He was met with a small trickle of water as it made its way out the bathroom door. As he peered inside he found wet towels, scummy soap and more toys strewn over the floor. Miles of toilet paper lay in a heap and toothpaste had been smeared over the mirror and walls. As he rushed to the bedroom, he found his wife still curled up in the bed in her pyjamas, reading a novel... She looked up at him, smiled and asked how his day went. He looked at her bewildered and asked, 'What happened here today?' She again smiled and answered, 'You know every day when you come home from work and you ask me what in the world do I do all day? ''Yes," was his incredulous reply. She answered, 'Well, today I didn't do it.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 I recall notifying RAAus of two incidents in which I was involved, (non injury incidents) and after waiting some months, found a barely recognisable "report' in the RAAus magazine. There were none of my words used. I only recognised the text as referring to my notifications by the aircraft type and the basic nature of what I had reported. Nobody reading it would have been able to learn from my errors, nor even been able to recognise the event. There was nothing in my words which were likely to bring about litigious reactions from any person. So I can assume that there is a whole story hidden behind each and every incident reported. It would be productive if something in the nature of the air safety digest (without prejudice, etc) could be instigated so that the lessons are not lost. If there are good reports created by RAAus, then it is in the interests of all for these reports to be openly available. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Thanks NP, I find it terribly sad, given the string of fatalites we are experiencing that any person would delete valuable learning experience from the worst case scenario, an accident, yet replace it with inane travel stories and versions of how to fly a circuit which I would imagine to instructors would be like scratching chalk across a blackboard. What was great about the system at the time of the Air Safety Digest were: 1. If you reported the incident first you were necver penalised 2. If you wrote your story of whatever silly mistake, you were thanked publicly by the Department and many pilots trying to be more professional. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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