The effect of the audit..dang!!!

[bilby54]

I appreciate this photo is a bit grainy but have a look at the rego on the side of this Chieftan taxying at Roma recently!

 

It is the dirty smudge at the base of the fin - the underwing was not much better.

 

It is about time that CASA started looking in their own backyard before having a go at the sport end of the market. Be real interested to know if this would get past the RAAus audit!!

 

 

 

[Teckair]

hows the HGF theses days?

Dunno but I reckon hang gliders and trikes are funny looking things. Probably find out they have got their own set of problems.

 

 

[Teckair]

I appreciate this photo is a bit grainy but have a look at the rego on the side of this Chieftan taxying at Roma recently!It is the dirty smudge at the base of the fin - the underwing was not much better.

It is about time that CASA started looking in their own backyard before having a go at the sport end of the market. Be real interested to know if this would get past the RAAus audit!!

 

[ATTACH=full]20738[/ATTACH]

What might have happened is this..... An RAAus aircraft which looks to the uninitiated to be a normal GA plane has crashed and a passenger has been hurt or killed and the family is looking for blood by suing who ever they can Casa, RAAus and the owner of the plane or their estate.

The lawyer doing the suing is claiming the passenger had no way of knowing the aircraft was not maintained the same as a GA plane as it looked just like one.

 

Casa do not want to be sued for the short comings of RAAus so they start getting serious everything being in place as is legally required. They do this with the audits which RAAus did not take seriously enough. After one year of warnings to get it right Casa had no choice but to force RAAus to get it right.

 

There is very likely no point in blaming Casa for RAAus short comings. People are saying it is CASA nit-picking but if it is a legal requirement to have the placards in place in the cockpit then they have to be there. I have made up 3 sets of placards for aircraft that did not have them which would indicate there could be a significant amount of planes that don't have them.

 

If you want blame someone for what is going on a good start would be the apathetic membership who have have sat back and allowed our organisation become what it now is. A situation now exists where we can't be sure if we have a president or not and a lawyer that we paid for tells us if we want to do something about it we have to challenge it in court at our own cost. Unbelievably a whole heap of members gave their proxies to the people that are doing this to us.

 

 

[bilby54]

So much for tongue in cheek!!

 

For the record, I did not send a proxy to anyone so must be part of the apathetic membership.

 

I do like the point about casa getting serious about everything being in place as legally required hence the picture of the crew change aircraft. What I do not understand is why audits did not happen until two ex ops managers went to casa and how they treated the situation when they did the audit? I have also put placards into aircraft mostly to stop people from overloading them but also to comply with the rules and that was before any audits or lack of, raised their collective heads.

 

 

[dodo]

My understanding is the last audit was three years prior to the current one.

 

Obviously, you wonder what changed in those three years? The quality of the audit?

 

Many of the problems are older than three years. However, the quality of RAs records and administration of registration was not good, and there is clearly a problem (although that would come across more clearly if there was less focus on the trivia of placards and photos).

 

To those who suggest CASA's record keeping and database my not be perfect (couple of people at the EGM suggested this might be so), that might be true. However, unless you can get someone to audit their database and publish the result, it doesn't do any good for us in RA-Aus.

 

dodo

 

 

[bilby54]

Thanks dodo,

 

I, like probably hundreds of other members, did not know about any of the audits so if none of the previous one's failed.... while the 'new' casa auditors were in charge of the hen house... what were the previous audits all about??

 

IMO, it has nothing to do with whether middo had a bunch of proxy's or not. The last lot of ops managers / CEO's had a lot to do with it, knew about the problem, went to dinner with casa and are now doing audits! Doesn't that strike a chord with anyone??

 

If there was not a problem 3 or 4 or 5 years ago, then how is there a problem now?

 

 

[dodo]

Thanks dodo,

 

If there was not a problem 3 or 4 or 5 years ago, then how is there a problem now?

The problems are if an aircraft does not meet legislated registration requirements. Many of the problems found in the most recent audit go back many years. Obviously, some are recent, but many are not. Many people have said "but you have been registering my aircraft for the last x years with the same aircraft you now won't register me on, so what's going on?"

 

Either the aircraft is legal to register, or it isn't legal.

 

No one has seriously criticised the fundamental quality of the audit in any way. Plenty have rightly criticised the trivial nature of some of the issues (photos etc.) - and that triviality might not reflect well on RA's administration, but also doesn't reflect well on CASA.

 

But I would be angry too, in your position. Just not at CASA or the audit.

 

dodo

 

 

[dodo]

Thanks dodo,I, like probably hundreds of other members, did not know about any of the audits so if none of the previous one's failed.?

Sorry, should have answered that.

 

My knowledge of the current audit was what I got out of the magazine, prior to the November shutdown, which was not very informative,and I wasn’t much interested, as I didn't see the relevance to me or other members. After the shutdown, I got what I could from this website.

 

The night before the meeting, the current (11/12 to 11/13) audit report/reports were available from the RA website. I read that between about 9pm and 11pm. I deal with financial audits a bit, and was not impressed by what I read (but I have no experience with anything aviation related with audits).

 

While smoking like your average addict outside the EGM I met Steve Bell. Never met him before, but I recognised his face from somewhere (prob the magazine) and asked him where I knew him from. Asked him if we had ever been audited before- he looked a bit surprised at the question and said yes, pretty normal, the last audit was about three years ago.

 

...so I have no special sources or knowledge,

 

dodo

 

 

[flyerme]

for the record my gripe is with Admin!!! They have been making me run around jumping threw hoop after hoop for at least 6 weeks now.

 

This could have been avoided if they told me every thing I needed to confirm too in order to re-reg in the first email/letter.BUT THEY DID NOT.instead every time I complied with there request they send out a new letter with something new to comply with?WTF feels like they are making it up as they go along to me? should have just told me EVERY thing they required in the first email/letter and I would be done by now.Im not the only one this is happening to , To me it really seems like the book is being written as we go along.?

 

 

[Gentreau]

.........To me it really seems like the book is being written as we go along.?

I suggest that is because the book was never correctly written before now, even though it should have been.

 

Let's face it, you should recieve a full and definitive list of everything you have to provide in order to renew a registration, with a note saying that regardless of whether you think you have already provided it, you should do so again. To be fair, a placard could be removed or fall off since the last renewal.

 

If RAA are unable to provide that, then you could be forgiven for asking why it did not already exist ....

 

Another point for those who are whinging about specific requirements (are you all Poms?) until they're changed, you have no choice but to respect them.

 

.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I was advised 3 weeks after my rego renewal was sent in. I received that via email on Christmas eve from Caitlin the Aircraft Database Administrator, asking for the one photo of the MTOW placard that was never asked for in the first place. I then received a letter via post a week after that from Middo asking for a whole set of photos. I just sent what the Administrator asked for and it was accepted.

 

Now what is Middo doing sending out letters trying to override what the Administrator asked for? More waste of money in stationary postage etc not to mention the confusion in what to send in. How many others recieved conflicting requests from him? Why did he send me a letter when i have requested preferred communication via email? Why did he try and override the ADA? Was he just pulling rank? Was he just getting underfoot and his actions caused delays in getting aircraft back in the air? Is this a common problem right though the RAAus operations that cause all the problems we are experiencing now?

 

Please will someone stop Middo from posting out continuous piles of unneccesary mail and let those who are employed to do the job just get on with it.

 

ozzie

 

 

[winsor68]

Hey Ozzie... He is Saint Middo now according to some of the BS I have read... lol

 

The view seems a bit deluded to me once you scratch the surface... I know plenty of people who work hard... If you don't have a clue it is just a waste of time and in some cases money.

 

 

[Teckair]

Bilby 54 said....

 

For the record, I did not send a proxy to anyone so must be part of the apathetic membership.

 

Your choice but no point in blaming others when things turn to crap.

 

I do like the point about casa getting serious about everything being in place as legally required hence the picture of the crew change aircraft.

 

That aircraft has nothing to do with RAAus but if you are concerned about it report to CASA.

 

What I do not understand is why audits did not happen until two ex ops managers went to casa and how they treated the situation when they did the audit?

 

How do you know audits did not happen prior to the ex ops managers going to Casa? How do know how they treated the situation when they did the audit?

 

One of our problems is the executive and most of the board do not tell us what is going on, these guys are confused and think they are there to rule us and not represent us. I have already explained one possible scenario as to why we suddenly have all this attention thrust on us about placards. I really doubt if it was a case of someone at CASA got out of bed one morning and said to themselves "time to give RAAus hell about placards."

 

 

[Teckair]

Bilby 54 said...

 

The last lot of ops managers / CEO's had a lot to do with it, knew about the problem, went to dinner with casa and are now doing audits! Doesn't that strike a chord with anyone??

 

Yeah a few different things could be read in that the most obvious possibility is not always right and it is easy to jump to the wrong conclusion, I think I see where you are going with that and I hope you are wrong.

 

Another possibility could be... There has been one or more accidents resulting in legal action CASA are not happy with the situation where RAAus has not got its house in order. CASA needs someone with knowledge of the RAAus to help sort it out.

 

If there was not a problem 3 or 4 or 5 years ago, then how is there a problem now?

 

Something may have changed since then like a court case or two.

 

 

[Teckair]

Bilby 54 said...

 

IMO, it has nothing to do with whether middo had a bunch of proxy's or not.

 

If people give their proxies to people who are causing the problems and they end up with the most proxies how is the situation going to be rectified?

 

 

[Robert]

ok, first they requested I need to get an engineering order for the brolga prop or replace with the certified one.$1400 later done,2 weeks later 2nd letter requesting photo's of all place cards including mtow. done

2 weeks later 3rd letter just received, now they want photo of hrs and landings and another photo signed and dated of underwing reg numbers?WTF

 

I have sent them in the first place signed dated photos of under wing and tail reg numbers signed and dated by cfi,lvl 2 including all info in the report /inspection and transfer info..this is starting to %^&& me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! reg runs out next week.

 

could have told me all this 6 weeks back when they first sent a letter about the prop...very unprofessional guys.

 

I guess when I send out the next requested info ill receive another request for something else..feels like they don't want my plane rego'ed?

 

not happy JAN

This prop thingy seems to me total over regulation by RAAus if the aircraft is not used for training why cant the aircraft be changed to a differant reg catigory or an EXPERIMENTAL catagory. Seems they want to kill off any experimentation or aircraft improvements.

 

Plus dont even get me started on some of their bullsh#t endorsments.

 

Oviously they think us pilots are dumb sh#ts and need to be totally regulated or they want total control over us!!!!!!

 

Seems to be becoming the Australian way though.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Guys

 

The RAAus Audit write ups by CASA are now on the RAAus website under news, just keeping clicking down until you get to the PDF's. You need to read the first 70 pages and then the last 20 or so to get enough info to actually answer a number of the questions rather than speculate.

 

Were there previous audits, yes clearly there were because one of the first observations by CASA was that there were Non Conformance reports from the last audit still unaddressed. Dodo has suggested that the last audit was 3 years prior..... so to suggest that CASA are changing the goal post or being picky.... That is dissengenous at best, CASA probably rightly formed the view "what is it that we have to do to make RAAus take this seriously?" To me any suggestion of impropriety by the CASA (Ex RAAus guys) is just B/S or trying to gold plate a turd!

 

The last few pages of the last Audit make it very clear to me that the concerns the detractors had around the running of the organisation were just and that CASA in a formal Audit had found exactly the same thing. Me claiming incompetence is just a claim, CASA documenting incompetance as an audit finding is just that FACT!

 

Andy

 

 

[M61A1]

The problems are if an aircraft does not meet legislated registration requirements. Many of the problems found in the most recent audit go back many years. Obviously, some are recent, but many are not. Many people have said "but you have been registering my aircraft for the last x years with the same aircraft you now won't register me on, so what's going on?"Either the aircraft is legal to register, or it isn't legal.

 

No one has seriously criticised the fundamental quality of the audit in any way. Plenty have rightly criticised the trivial nature of some of the issues (photos etc.) - and that triviality might not reflect well on RA's administration, but also doesn't reflect well on CASA.

 

But I would be angry too, in your position. Just not at CASA or the audit.

 

dodo

I think that the only thing that has changed is that the auditors are getting into the nitty gritty, as they are throughout all industry. RAAus has written a process, if, when the auditor comes along , you have no followed that process, it must be fixed. It doesn't matter whether or not it was like that for 10 years or is trivial, all that matters to an auditor is "are you following the process?" It has nothing at all to do with common sense.

[djpacro]

RAAus has written a process, if, when the auditor comes along , you have no followed that process, it must be fixed.

Much of the process originates with CASA regs and orders but I have always been intrigued by the annual renewal of aircraft registration - I don't see a CASA requirement for that anywhere at all. The Tech Manual refers to renewal of registrations but no requirement for it to be annual. Seems to me that the annual requirement originates with an RAA desire (or need) for regular income. Otherwise it seems to me that CASA would be satisfied with permanent registration or perhaps the RAA might consider, say, every five years to maintain its own audit function and an income.

 

It has nothing at all to do with common sense.

Not true at all. The lowest level of finding is an Observation which may result in no action but certainly something to consider. Highest level is a Safety Alert requiring immediate action. Otherwise simply fix the problem and fix the process so the problem doesn't happen again.

[pmccarthy]

I don't understand how a file can be audited multiple times with a different omission discovered each time. Surely an audit of a file is done against a checklist of what should be in the file. I was grounded for lack of a C of A, then some months later for lack of a weight report. If I don't send in photos I will probably be grounded again. I have some experience with auditing and this shouldn't happen. It doesn't seem to be a matter of competence of the auditor, even the tea lady should be able to a check file contents against a list. Whee can I find the list that says what should be in an aircraft file? Is it a CASA list?

 

 

[bilby54]

Bilby 54 said....

 

For the record, I did not send a proxy to anyone so must be part of the apathetic membership.

 

Your choice but no point in blaming others when things turn to crap.

 

Ok, my explanation for not giving anyone my proxy is there were no motions put forward prior to the meeting to vote on. I attend a lot of public meetings with my work and they regularly get to be slanging matches with little regard for what is being discussed. If there were dredible motions to vote on then I would have awarded my proxy to whom I felt best suited to use it. This came from a previous comment of yours and I really do agree with your comment.

 

I do like the point about casa getting serious about everything being in place as legally required hence the picture of the crew change aircraft.

 

That aircraft has nothing to do with RAAus but if you are concerned about it report to CASA.

 

Hang about, I thought this was what it was all about. CASA needing to get everything in place for legal reasons and I put the photo of the Chieftan up as an example of what is not happening - RAAus or GA.

 

What I do not understand is why audits did not happen until two ex ops managers went to casa and how they treated the situation when they did the audit?

 

How do you know audits did not happen prior to the ex ops managers going to Casa? How do know how they treated the situation when they did the audit?

 

I did not know and that is not a legal excuse but when have the membership ever been told of audits of any kind as per your comments below?

 

One of our problems is the executive and most of the board do not tell us what is going on, these guys are confused and think they are there to rule us and not represent us. I have already explained one possible scenario as to why we suddenly have all this attention thrust on us about placards. I really doubt if it was a case of someone at CASA got out of bed one morning and said to themselves "time to give RAAus hell about placards."

[Gentreau]

.......even the tea lady should be able to a check file contents against a list. Where can I find the list that says what should be in an aircraft file? Is it a CASA list?

So you think there is a list, it hasn't changed, and it's always been there ?

 

Not the impression I get....

 

 

[bilby54]

Bilby 54 said...IMO, it has nothing to do with whether middo had a bunch of proxy's or not.

 

If people give their proxies to people who are causing the problems and they end up with the most proxies how is the situation going to be rectified?

How do you know who is the problem? I am certain that I and everyone else can give their vote to whoever they feel inclined to due to the nature of the society that we live in. Seems very obvious to me that a proxy system does not work.

 

I will withdraw my comments about previous ops managers but prove to me that they had no knowledge of the situation before they left for CASA.

 

 

[M61A1]

Much of the process originates with CASA regs and orders but I have always been intrigued by the annual renewal of aircraft registration - I don't see a CASA requirement for that anywhere at all. The Tech Manual refers to renewal of registrations but no requirement for it to be annual. Seems to me that the annual requirement originates with an RAA desire (or need) for regular income. Otherwise it seems to me that CASA would be satisfied with permanent registration or perhaps the RAA might consider, say, every five years to maintain its own audit function and an income.Not true at all. The lowest level of finding is an Observation which may result in no action but certainly something to consider. Highest level is a Safety Alert requiring immediate action. Otherwise simply fix the problem and fix the process so the problem doesn't happen again.

I was just pretty much applying what happens in the AMO audits I've been through to exlain why things may have occurred. Over the years, auditors have been getting pickier, what one auditor might have let slip last year, may not get through at all this year. My point about common sense was in the context, that it doesnt matter that your aircraft has had that propeller fitted and been operating safely for 10 years, what matters is that the document says a particular type and model is fitted and is non-compliant if it's not. I suspect that a lot of the data has been either misplaced or was never provided and was registered anyway.

 

 

[Teckair]

How do you know who is the problem? I am certain that I and everyone else can give their vote to whoever they feel inclined to due to the nature of the society that we live in. Seems very obvious to me that a proxy system does not work.I will withdraw my comments about previous ops managers but prove to me that they had no knowledge of the situation before they left for CASA.

Some how the majority of people have to recognise what the problems are so they can take steps to deal with it I have been observing what is happening, talking to board members, ex board members and reading this forum and trying to sort out the truth from the BS. I feel I have an understanding of what is happening and was able to give my proxy to someone I thought would use it wisely. The situation that existed meant there could not be motions in place before the meeting. We have to do something or we may end up with a heap of display only aircraft or should I say an even bigger heap of display only aircraft than what we have at the present time.