Tomo Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I'm pretty interested in learning to instruct, possibly later on this year but I just wonder if it's really worth the effort at the moment with RAA all up in the air. I've heard rumours that RAA may not exist next year... not sure how true that is but if so what will happen to those instructors? What's your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Having the same thoughts Tomo,,,,haven't got any answer for you though,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle1 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 RAA or not there is no money in it 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I would be waiting until next year (after Dec 1 2013 CASA changeover to RPL and sequellae). I know from mates that GA (PPL) doesn't pay that well, I don't think RAA would be any better. Something to supplement retirement, but not much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Tomo you need to start a religion, rivers of gold, rivers of gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I'm pretty interested in learning to instruct, possibly later on this year but I just wonder if it's really worth the effort at the moment with RAA all up in the air. I've heard rumours that RAA may not exist next year... not sure how true that is but if so what will happen to those instructors? What's your thoughts? Next time your at a typical airfield mate, check out the average age of the instructors car. Then go to a building site, office block, even a retail shop and check the same, you'll soon see that we don't do it for the money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sain Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yeah, the car is a good indicator, however it is also worth finding out if the instructor does something else to earn a crust and teaches flying for the love of it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Tomo, I`ve always thought you could make a good instructor. The reality is, you will need to invest (spend) money to obtain your instructor rating. You will need to work under the supervision of a CFI, which means someone will have to take you on. You will need to get to and from the place you will be instructing from. More $$$ . The probability is, you will be siting around all day but won`t get to do many hours instructing and you will only be paid for the hrs you do. You will have to do 50 hrs in-flight instructing to get to senior instructor, and 200 hrs in-flight, to CFI. Eventually! If you invest enough time and money, you may be able to start your own flying school. Your income will depend on the amount of students you put through and how much you expect to be paid. How many $ you get to keep will depend on your overheads and the amount of $ you have invested. Is it worth it? It depends on what you expect to get out of instructing and how you measure 'worth'. Only you can answer that. Will the RAA still be around next year?.......Will any of us still be around next year? Frank. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Regardless of what changes may occur, I don't think CASA would want to take on the administration of all Recreational/sport activities. They are in the business of regulating and controlling. Just too much work for them really. If they withdraw the exemptions situation, that would be replaced with a new (possibly new FAR 103) in the part 66 set up. We need to be very pro- active in the transition if there is one, and make sure we let them know what we need for the future. The propellor situation is a classic example, we need to be able to use the latest prop advancements, not only the 'wooden toothpick' that a plane was certified with 30 years ago !.......... With instructing, I've always seen it as a calling, something you want to do because you know you would be good at it, bit like school teaching, not necessarily doing it for the money........maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Most of the larger schools or instructors in the states were also dealers or agents for new aircraft. Some offerred several types. It's a ready made market, student solos and needs an entry level aircraft. My instructor spent his evenings and windy days assembling new aircraft kits, often with the help of his students. Also a good learning experience for the student, as far as aircraft maintenance goes...........Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mAgNeToDrOp Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 You'll probably have to pay your own liability insurance as well, unless the school is willing to put you on theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 You know my view on you being an instructor. Looking for certainty? Aviation has never had much of it. How you go depends on who is the CFI you go under, as well as yourself. Initially HE/SHE is the one who will be most influential and helpful to you. You are supervised a lot till you get the experience that is necessary for everyone in handling not just flying the plane.( which you can) but how well you get the message across to your students. Get into the PMI and if you do the CASA exam you have that qualification for all time. Do unusual attitudes recovery training and go for it. Input any changes that are coming once they appear on the horizon. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I overlooked insurance in my original post. Anyone instructing or running a flying school without sufficient insurance cover needs to be either, very brave, very stupid, have nothing to loose or all three. The question is, how much is "sufficient" insurance cover, in todays legal envir0nment? Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 With instructing, I've always seen it as a calling, something you want to do because you know you would be good at it, bit like school teaching, not necessarily doing it for the money........maj... How right you are Maj. All 3 of we GA/RAAus instructors are part time here, but each running at about 300 hrs pa. You'll never get rich, but it's more like a paid hobby. Raaus will continue on as an RAAO, but we can only speculate as to how the introduction of CASR Part 61 will affect training activities. It appears that it will make things more complex and costly in the GA instructing sector. That said, I think that it is going to create great opportunities for RAAus in the ab initio end of the entire training market - not just in the recreational sector. We don't train students any differently in either side of the school.... after all, the competencies should be the same. It appears that in Part 61 there will be a quite painless pathway to convert from a PC to the RPL - because of the very good recognition wording there. The it will depend on the flexibility of the schools involved. Obviously, joint schools have the great advantage that they have no 'recognition of prior learning' issues because it's all under the same roof. We are seriously intending to merge our student records so that the step over is seamless - we just shift the student file from one cabinet to the other, (one folder in the iPad to the other in future). Can't see any reason for RAAus not to use the CASA student records. I'm very optimistic about the future opportunities for FTF's in the regional centres where there's good airport/airfield access. We have a new Brumby 610 under construction, and one of our star recent students is now nearly finished his instructor rating at another FTF in WA. This FTF is also a RAAus/GA combined operation, and the RAAus instructor can later return there to complete their GA rating. We believe there is an easier pathway and it's not via GA in the 1st instance. Our student will be able to operate here as a junior instructor because, as an elderly retiree, I have the time, and inclination, to supervise his early flying. Not being under commercial pressures, and with only a modest student load, we can look to conduct internal training and broaden the skills range of the new instructor. Now there are benefits for everyone in this. (win:win in the current parlance) I can pass on my 50 years knowledge, particularly in low level and tailwheel ops, and between us all we'll supervise and help the newbie through the CPL too. The new instructor, who is a technology whiz - will help the school to cope with all the social media stuff, and also guide our ignorant old selves through the new minefields of SMS,CBT etc. Now all this is achievable if both parties are committed to remain in the same location, and operate as part-timers. In our case - this is so. So Tomo, there is plenty of future in RAAus instructing. Find a joint school which will discuss your onward progression in instructing. Look at it as a step toward becoming a dual sector instructor, because the real future is there. Plan to upskill yourself into every possible rating and type qualification. Beaver away at those CPL subjects in the process. Anyway.........just an opinion for you. happy days, 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayavner Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I've thought about this as well for a possible future goal - definitely not to make a living, but for the love of flying and teaching. I think it would be nice to have more instructors out there who aren't just trying to rack up hours for a ATPL job like my first two, so as they say, "be the change you want to see in the world". but yeah that's a helluva long way away for me at the rate I'm going lol :) Tomo, I think you'd be great - you seem knowledgeable, cheerful and patient! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebutler Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I would be waiting until next year (after Dec 1 2013 CASA changeover to RPL and sequellae).I know from mates that GA (PPL) doesn't pay that well, I don't think RAA would be any better. Something to supplement retirement, but not much more. Hi damkia, What are these PPL's being paid for? A PPL should not be getting any payment at all. As far as the RA Aus instructors goes, I started the course but got the idea that there was very little work unless you had your own aircraft and ran your own show. This I got from the few schools that I had contact with and it was never my intention to do this full time. I was travelling at least an hour to and an hour from the nearest airport for the training. On many occasions I would get there and there would be no aircraft available for training. Once I had completed the course again I would have to travel the same and considering the money was not great and not a lot of work around I decided to pack it in. Add to that, 1 instructor told me I could not fly. Also to H & F suitable aircraft to build hours and practice in was again near impossible, the schools would rather have there aircraft used by there instructors teaching there students. Again when I got the use of an aircraft there was the 2 hour round trip to go for an hour or 2 flying. Considering I still work full time during the week it did not leave much time for family and looking after ones house etc. Of course the distance problem only effects me and those living in the southern suburbs of Brissy, if you live near Caboolture, Redcliffe, Boonah etc it will no doubt be different. There is also the future of RA Aus as some have already mentioned, I have decided not to renew my membership at this time and stick to flying GA, Archerfield is a reasonable distance for me and my current situation lets me fly at a reasonable price. I don't want sound negative but considering the investment you need to make you need to get some return to make it viable and at the moment I do not believe this is possible. If there are any suggestions or anybody thinks I am wrong please respond as I am still interested and will continue the course if the situation changes. I agree it is a calling and never saw it as a "money making" enterprise but considering the cost I would want to recover at least some of the costs in a reasonable time. After that maybe a bit of pocket money would be good. I say if you can do it go for it. My 2c 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Seems to me that Part 61 etc will simplify and reduce costs for GA schools especially up to PPL. I agree there are a lot of significant changes to take on. There is a minimum award rate for GA instructors which doesn't excite me enough to get out of bed early on a Sunday morning these days so I wonder what the going rate for a RAA instructor is. (always happy to get up early to teach aerobatics to a willing student) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 It all depends on where you are, the school who provides your rating and the school you find work at really. Your earning potential will also be largely dependent on your experience and maturity levels. If you're young with 200 hours under your belt then expect to be sitting around scratching the dust with 6 other young inexperienced instructors 6 days a week for $15 per flying hour where you'll be lucky to notch up 20 hours per month. If you've got 600-1000 hours under your belt (just flying hours) and a good deal of maturity then you'll be earning $40 per flying hour and flying 1000 hours per year with no fuss. Throw in a GA instructors rating and you'll be earning $50/hour as a Grade 3 up to $90 per hour as a top Grade 1. Life experience helps if your flying experience is low but the major factor is a good deal of humility when approaching potential employers. Seek out a good school and make contact with them. Tell them you've looked around and have heard they have a good reputation. Do not slap a whole bunch of ego on the table in your first meeting. A good school will be looking for a long-term relationship and will screen candidates very closely. There is no shortage of young kids out there with shiny new epaulets queuing up for jobs. If you're committed to instructing, have a great safety record and the proper attitude then with a bit of research you should find yourself a place in one of the most rewarding and satisfying careers out there. It's a big choice to go down that path though which is why most RA instructors have other more stable jobs and only do it for love. If the RA community wakes up one morning and agrees to pay a reasonable price for flying and instructing then the instructing option will become more attractive. For a flying school who is paying someone to maintain their fleet the costs of running a Gazelle compared to a Cessna 150 are pretty much exactly the same. The instructors also need to eat and put a roof over their heads whether they're GA or RA... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Seems to me that Part 61 etc will simplify and reduce costs for GA schools especially up to PPL. I agree there are a lot of significant changes to take on.There is a minimum award rate for GA instructors which doesn't excite me enough to get out of bed early on a Sunday morning these days so I wonder what the going rate for a RAA instructor is. (always happy to get up early to teach aerobatics to a willing student) Just for information the base award wage for GA Grade 3 is currently around $50 per flying hour. The award is silent on RA ratings as the definition of pilot under the award is a "person who is the holder of a commercial pilot’s licence". A pilot also has to be employed under the provisions of the award so it won't apply unless you're employed as a Grade 3/2/1 instructor. I assume this would leave RA instructors with the national minimum wage as a base line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Wages for junior pilots was never going to be easy to get when many will fly for nothing just to get the hours up. Hasn't changed in 50 years at least. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Mouse Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Hi davebutler What we need is an airfield in the Redland/Cleveland area for southsiders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimG Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 When I was driving over to the school I fly for, it was a good day if the small amount of pay cover the fuel expense to get there and back. Now I have my own Aircraft to use to transit, the time and fuel costs aren't as much and if the weather is off then there is no flying anyway. I knew from the start, earning an instructor rating and instructing on saturdays would cost me way more than I would ever earn. My motivation was and still is to keep working on my own skill and ability and that sure is the case while working though the rating course, plus I believed the challenge of teaching student pilots , both in the aircraft and on the white board, would be extremely satisfying. It is, and if I can help someone learn the skill and procedures of flying an aircraft safely whilst continuing to build my own skill and discipline, then that is great, and so far I have no regrets. Best thing is, each week I still do the countdown to saturday , watching the wx forecast with anticipation...........can't wait. cheers JimG 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 That's nice Jim G . Money isn't everything. IF I had a lot, it would make me feel uncomfortable. There's no chance of that problem at the moment. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Just for information the base award wage for GA Grade 3 is currently around $50 per flying hour. Nearly $60 per hour after the latest amendment in June - plus super if applicable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 All good comments and input I've noticed in this thread and also an interesting flip side to an earlier thread that discussed the various rates around the country with FTF's on offer. Someone once said" be careful in making your passion your profession" some would say that if you do then you'll never work a day in your life. But knowing that you must do it each day to make a sustainable living can very much change your perspective on any job. Every job has its highs and lows( excuse the pun) and instructing is no different. Getting to know, teaching, shaping, moulding and watching a student grow and then command an aeroplane, and then be given the authority to do so unsupervised is one of the greatest types of job satisfaction I can give and receive. There are many other less attractive, arduous and menial tasks and coupled with the environmental uncertainties,personality types, compliance and business pressures and our insecure governance at present can tend to dilute this satisfaction so it all balances out. So then your left with the remuneration and this will very much depends on every individuals needs and expectations. Most schools don't have a huge support staff to do all the non flying responsibilities so this often falls on the instructor who, as mentioned before will only get paid for their flight hours. I know execs and managers earning high 100k plus incomes, FIFO mining workers and tradesmen also on the top side of 100k plus also. Some do 40 hrs a week some 80 plus! But I guess the national average wage is in the mid 60k mark, so if you can earn somewhere between average and the above mentioned examples, and do less than 50 hrs then you have a good job for a reasonable income, the rest comes down to job satisfaction and the time you commit to earn that wage. The satisfaction is more often priceless but, you can't pay the bills with a smile. Love over gold, romantic not pragmatic.... All food for thought. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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