fly_tornado Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Looking at Camit's marketing and distribution at the moment and you can see that it will restrict them to being a small player in the market. Rotax will continue to set the benchmark for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 That will depend on the success of their newer engine. It's VERY expensive and not easily worked on by ordinary folk. THAT leaves room for other players. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Bombardier have something like US$9Bn of revenue per annum. Possibly a bit of an ask for a factory in Bundaberg with about 15 employees to compete mano-a-mano? Or do you have no farging idea of the power that scale of manufacturing brings to the market-place? Because, if that is the case, you would propose that the Toyota Camry is a better car than a Bugatti Veyron. That LG makes better hi-fi than Nakamichi. That Timex makes better watches than Panerai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Works of art are not mass produced. Mass produced articles are designed to be mass produced and it shows in the design. It does give a fair bit to many at a cheap price.Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Works of art are not mass produced. Mass produced articles are designed to be mass produced and it shows in the design. It does give a fair bit to many at a cheap price.Nev But Rotax is mass produced but really pretty over priced; this is evidenced by the almost obscene profit that Bombadier makes each year. Perhaps, when CAMIT gets back into production with the Jabiru-without-the-problems donk (presumably at a favourable price), sales of expensive Rotax engines may plummet in Australia which may result in an appropriate price drop. Rotax really needs decent competition so that they don't have the market largely to themselves. Perhaps the BEX-2016 engine will also add to the competition? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 The CAMit engine should in no way affect Rotax sales - you wouldn't discard a Rotax to install a CAMit engine, for all the same reasons of expense of changing over from one cooling type to another, let alone the weight difference, the prop. difference between a direct-drive and a gear-drive, new engine mount, etc. etc. for not changing a Jabiru engine to a Rotax. CAMit engines will go into Jabiru and Sonex u/ls with extremely minimal changes. It may well be that other u/l's looking for the combination of performance, safety, and low-cost, will emerge using the CAMit engine when it is certified to ASTM. I don't see Flight Design, Tecnam etc. changing to CAMit engines, however: the European market will always favour Rotax engines - in part, because they have less 'robust' operating conditions in which to operate. In Australia, a simple, light-weight engine powering a tough, safe and comfortable plane for a four-hour-plus flight over remote country is the norm rather than the exception. It's no accident that Jabirus outsell Cessnas in SA, where the operating conditions are fairly similar to Australia's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 99% of LSA OEMs spec a rotax, so no chance of Camit or Jabiru ever getting a serious look into that market. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I'm sure FT is trying to make a pertinent point. I'm not sure that we or he knows what that point might be..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 With AUD headed for $0.60 thats a 30% price rise for rotax on last 12 months. This may not been seen in current AU stock yet If someone can sort out reliability problems and perceptions why would you choose a 914? Plenty of Australian designs have the choice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Ft doesn't have any time for Jabiru's. Light weight and no liquid is a plus in one way, but the liquid cooling makes the operation less critical on the engine, but funnily, the only two times I have had to do an unplanned landing relating to the engine, was to change the amount of air through a radiator on a Rotax. There are pipes everywhere with two carbs a dry sump and oilcooler and radiator. I'm not keen on using a thermostat and the plane(s) weren't mine but when the green stuff comes out, you have a look. I've always advocated cowl gills ( cooling shutters) because you save fuel (less drag)and control heat in descents better, and can warm up faster, regardless of what motor you have installed. Some Cont 0-200's and Lyc 0-235's don't even need an oil cooler, so what you don't have can't play up. Love it when it's simple in a plane. Nev 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 99% of LSA OEMs spec a rotax, so no chance of Camit or Jabiru ever getting a serious look into that market. Have you priced a Technam lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Tecnam is a global player, the small number of sales they lose out on in Australia would hardly be of concern. The likelihood of them taking on a Jabiru is about the same as Jabiru taking on a Rotax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Globally, you are right! Last time I looked, I was in OZ. $heers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 and Jabiru will never be more than an modest success without OEMs adapting their engines. ULpower and Dmotor are definitely going to squeeze Jabiru out of the home builder market 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba jenny Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Hi all, Interesting discussion. Have just joined. Thought I'd share details of my Jabiru LSA 80hp. It now has approx 6,700 hours on the airframe. Was used originally as a flying school trainer. Now on it's second engine. All necessary maint, throughbolts etc, hasbeen done, always been run on avgas. I've only owned it for a short time and have just clocked over 30 hours. I'm looking forward to the next 1000!!! 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 and Jabiru will never be more than an modest success without OEMs adapting their engines. ULpower and Dmotor are definitely going to squeeze Jabiru out of the home builder market Hey FT, Everyone's entitled to an opinion..... So what's your opinion about CAE engines? and you know what they say about opinions? They're like brains - nearly everyone's got one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I don't think you should be the one to be apologising Motz. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 FT what is going to happen is the extinguishing of Euro or US LSA sales in Australia AND the prevention of UL power and D Motor entries into our market - simply too expensive. Its not just purchase price but service and spares. Remember current exchange rates are far more normal than the last few years. Will mean a few things Strengthening of AU made LSA sales as local engines and aircraft become better value. Not sure of the rules but maybe having engine installed locally on Euro models. No reason at all Bristell or others wouldnt offer CAE as option, currently offer Jabiru. Or far more likely, people will stick to older models and keep fixing them up even dropping out of LSA to E reg.........new CAE anyone? Now where Jabiru want to position themselves is anyone's guess. There is no doubt an opportunity to grow locally but focus might be overseas or anywhere CASA do not have influence and sadly thats detrimental to RAA and Aus aviation as a whole. In any case CAE is in a pretty good spot and a solid option for locals in new or repowered aircraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I was just talking about the exchange rate on the $ and the affect it will have on aircraft sales the other day, I was saying that the local aircraft manufactures are well placed if they have a good product to pick all the sales that would have gone overseas. We have manufacturers like Gary Morgan being pushed out of the LSA market at the wrong time, we need manufacturers like him, we need the authorities and the flying public to support him and we need to do our best to keep them running, I would like to support Australian made products but they must be comparable is quality with a reasonable price tag, some of the prices for overseas aircraft are getting out of control which runs through then to second hand market. I have found some second hand aircraft only around 10%-20% less than buying a new one and these are 10 years old, good for the owners I guess but what is going to happen in 5 years time, are we going to have an ageing fleet of aircraft being flown by low hours pilots...does that sound familiar? it does to me. I think in the near future the way the $ is going we may not have a choice to buy Aussie...unless you have very deep pockets. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 apart from the Australian domestic market, their prospects in the future aren't great. The home building market isn't big enough to support so many small manufacturers. Its a shame that Jab missed out on getting into the van RV12 ELSA spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Tecnam is a global player, the small number of sales they lose out on in Australia would hardly be of concern. The likelihood of them taking on a Jabiru is about the same as Jabiru taking on a Rotax. I still remember the days when people said words to this effect: "Holdens, Falcons and Valiants are all backed by US-based global automotive manufacturers. The likelihood of Japanese manufacturers being a serious challenge is very minimal". How different things are today, Valiants haven't been made for quite some time, Holdens and Falcons are on the way out. You never know, FT, Camit may be just the engine that many people are looking for and Rotax's sales may be dinted by Camit one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 no chance m8, none what so ever. they'll sell but never enough to make a significant impact, the aviation industry is too conservative 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Rotax is the unconventional "new" design........its only 30 or 40 years old CAE and others are essentially an adaption of standard aviation engines, its actually their strength in the US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Superficially what you say is right but the Jabiru while looking like a conventional flat aircooled engine is built an a few ways quite different from the "standard" aviation engine. UL is probably closer but better than the ConLyc designs. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 I just watched Tony Abbotts last press conference as PM.......It was inspiring.....I felt for him and got a feel for the man as he is, not as his advisors and slogan writers have parroted through him......What a shame that was hidden from us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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