Guest Maj Millard Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 N Hi All. I'm fairly new to the RAA scene (doing my training out at Murray Bridge, SA). Loving it so far and have found this site to be very valuable, especially when it comes to researching different types of aircraft. I'm still about 2 years from buying, mainly because I think it will take me that long to work out what I really need/want.I'm doing my training in a Jab and have obviously taken an interest in the heated debate that seems to pop up on this site pretty frequently. As someone without an agenda on the issue, it seems that there are a lot of black and white opinions. Shouldn't we all just agree to call a spade a spade? The reality is that the Jab engine isn't going to win any awards for reliability, and that should enter into the risk assessment you do for every flight. It's no different to assessing the weather. Just because it's legal, doesn't make it smart or safe. In my situation, I'm happy with my decision to train in a Jab because our airfield is surrounded by flat paddocks. Would I fly one over hostile terrain? Absolutely not. I know some others would, and that's their decision, but based on the research I have done, my mechanical knowledge of the engine (low), etc, It's outside of my limits. As a side note, I know that there are plenty of stories of jabs with 2000+ hours on them. I know our school is one such example. I have also spoken to some local folks who swear by the Jab engine for one (valid) reason or another. The difference between all those people and me is that they are all aircraft mechanics! There are plenty of other examples of where aircraft characteristics may not fit someones risk profile. I wouldn't fly in a single engine turboprop or a aircraft with very high wing loading like a Lancair. I always assume the engine is going to fail and there is simply too much that is beyond my control if that were to unfold in one of those types of aircraft. Obviously, there is nothing illegal about flying a Lancair, and there are plenty of safe pilots who make the decision to fly one, being fully aware of all of the variables. The problem of course is that not all pilots are smart or safe, and because there is the chance that their decisions will impact others, we are left in a situation where we try and regulate against stupidity. So... If you you really think that the Jab engine is as reliable as anything else and that all of these engine failures are just unsubstantiated urban legends, for your own sake, wake up and smell the coffee. Or at least make sure you don't fly with any passengers that are relying on your judgement to keep them alive If you continually preach that Jabiru engines should be banished, at least accept that there are situations where they can be operated safely If you're a new student, make sure that the characteristics of what you're strapping yourself into play into your risk assessment. Don't rely on anyone else to do that for you. That includes RAA, CASA and your flight instructor. It's your **** on the line, so act accordingly. For the moment, I'm happy flying the Jab in the environment I am. Personally, I wouldn't buy one because of the uncertainty around the engine, but there seems to be a lot of chatter about improvements, so maybe things will be different a couple of years from now. Anyway...just my 2 cents as someone with less history behind me. Now I'm going back to the couch to watch the rest of the fight from a safe distance! Cheers Nick Hi Nick, and welcome to the forum, Yours is one of the most realistic outlooks I have encountered in some time. One hopes that part of your outlook is based on what you may have read on this forum.....and if so our words and efforts have not been wasted. Enjoy the rest of your flying, your open-minded assessment of the info available will always work to protect you in the ever-changing environment that is aviation today...........Cheers ......Maj...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Fellow earthling’s Humans love throwing rocks – aussies throw rocks at kiwis and aussies and kiwis throw rocks at Tasmanians ? Any human that purchased something ………… and then other humans started throwing projectiles at their purchase has a right to feel aggrieved, protective, cautious, indignant etc – even slandered These projectiles may seem like rocks to the purchaser – but then they could also be sound advice (if there is a proved factual basis) The legislators play their role and can’t tell us mere humans what they are up to until it is done …… if done at all Any of the action (s) above could be related I think all here are talking about safety and sound advice – it just looks different depending on what side of the fence you are on (if any side at all) ………… ‘the sea resists no river’ P Townshend 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadstick Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Any defect report submitted to RAA is passed on to CASA, one thing and this is not an attack on RAA ( I know they are busy with other issues) is a lack of feedback on defect report results etc. I have been reporting any defect however trivial and following up with the 'jabiru investigation report' for a while. Recently I started saving RAA the paperwork hassle of receiving and passing on and now submit straight to CASA and provide details to the ACCC (at their request). CASA are great at giving feedback on this issue and provide you with an estimate for completion and progress up dates. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Any defect report submitted to RAA is passed on to CASA, one thing and this is not an attack on RAA ( I know they are busy with other issues) is a lack of feedback on defect report results etc.I have been reporting any defect however trivial and following up with the 'jabiru investigation report' for a while. Recently I started saving RAA the paperwork hassle of receiving and passing on and now submit straight to CASA and provide details to the ACCC (at their request). CASA are great at giving feedback on this issue and provide you with an estimate for completion and progress up dates. My co-owner and I have also submitted a defect report to RAA fairly recently (about a Jabiru defect, lest anybody think I am not objective here!) and the RAA feedback and action was pretty reasonable, I thought. I think it is important to send the RAA any information that will help it assemble information; only that way will we start to get a corporate understanding of issues so that all members can get the benefit of RAA advice should they refer to RAA for information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slb Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Any defect report submitted to RAA is passed on to CASA, one thing and this is not an attack on RAA ( I know they are busy with other issues) is a lack of feedback on defect report results etc. Maybe having a specific RAA defect report online form would help? It would certainly encourage more to report, would be much quicker, and if all reported defects end up with information in a speadsheet then that would enable RAA to quickly sort, and produce some interesting stats for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Slb. There is a form online. It's called the defect reporting form. On the raa website under the heading.... Forms... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slb Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Slb. There is a form online. It's called the defect reporting form. On the raa website under the heading.... Forms... ;) Sorry, motzartmerv. I meant a form you can 'complete' on-line rather than one you can access online and print off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 in my 30 years in the aircraft maintenance game, those with professional credentials are the ones to stay the thurthest away from, and are responsible for almost every major repair failure i have seen in airline and Military aviation, and steadfastly refuse to listen to the guys with 30 years experience on the actual airframe and toolsIsnt the development of air legislation the domain of the legal fraternity? you hold the exact same quals as me, except mine is in military aviation and covers all from fast jet, to rotary wing and drones. having fun learning the new MRH at the moment. ohh, the "professionals" have come up with some doozies when it comes to idea and design failures. because they know everything of course without ever seeing a real life airframe! the overtime and rectification work my teams now need to do is making us a fortune! i know whats going on behind the scenes also, and i know why nothing can be said in public domain at this point.. but as they say, the wheels are turning. Well, I can't argue that 'professionals' have contributed to some monumental stuff-ups; one assumes that, for instance, it was 'professionals' that designed the C162. However, in this particular case, I'd argue that Jabiru airframes have a pretty damn good reputation world-wide - can you provide evidence of any aerodynamic or structural failures? I ask because these people I rely on as 'professionals' were responsible for the aerodynamic and structural development of the whole Jabiru line. You may not be aware of it, but the entire re-write of Part 103 of the CASR was undertaken by a CAR 35 engineer and George Markey, the ex-president of the AUF, operating when John Sharp was the responsible Minister. Sharp may not have been the smartest politician, but he understood aviation and bought in appropriate expertise to write the regulations. Yes, I don't have the breadth of your expertise. But FWIW, the people I rely on have most certainly seen a real life airframe - they are builders of aircraft, not just computer-jockeys. One has held an aircraft welder's ticket, the other has operated as the factory builder of Jab airframes (amongst other things) and is generally considered as a world's expert on Boron patch repair work (F15's, Globemasters). They do the real work on aircraft: pull rivets, patch composites, get their hands dirty. As far as 'knowing what's going on behind the scenes', perhaps you should refer to the RAA Technical Manager for an explanation of just what actual power RAA has to 'do' anything. This is fast becoming a matter of urban myth akin to the 'second gunman on the grassy knoll' or the WTC conspiracy theory. There's more fertiliser abounding here than you'd find in a Texas Rodeo bull paddock , mostly whipped-up by FNQ's answer to US TV Evangelists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Want to tell us who you are oscar? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 im not disagreeing with Jabiru airframes, i have repaired quite a few beaten up Jabs that would have written off any other airframe (except a savannah ) and they have proven their strength time and time again, its the engines that most, if not all have the issues with. If they built their engines as tough as the airframe, they wouldn't be able to build em fast enough, and would be selling at great rate all over the world. and the biggest issue is with Jabirus attitude to its customers, almost head in the sand in regards to their engine, and complete denial, blaming everything on the operator. putting all of their efforts into hiding failed engines, not investigating etc, when they should be refining and improving their product by choice, not when forced to. this is what pisses off your customers, not the engines themselves 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 when they should be refining and improving their product by choice, not when forced to. this is what pisses off your customers, not the engines themselves Amen!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Want to tell us who YOU are, Merv? I'm a private citizen, you are - apparently - someone who makes his income from the RAA sector. What do you have to hide from the punters, beyond the obvious obsessional dispute with anything Jabiru, Merv? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Andrew campbell. from Nowra NSW And you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 im not disagreeing with Jabiru airframes, i have repaired quite a few beaten up Jabs that would have written off any other airframe (except a savannah ) and they have proven their strength time and time again, its the engines that most, if not all have the issues with. If they built their engines as tough as the airframe, they wouldn't be able to build em fast enough, and would be selling at great rate all over the world. and the biggest issue is with Jabirus attitude to its customers, almost head in the sand in regards to their engine, and complete denial, blaming everything on the operator. putting all of their efforts into hiding failed engines, not investigating etc, when they should be refining and improving their product by choice, not when forced to. this is what pisses off your customers, not the engines themselves Summed up perfectly ultralights, and as I said before there is no other that is in the class of the J230. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 CASA acts on matters of compliance with standards HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA breath in HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA i have seen people careers and lives ruined by CASA acting purely on here say and video "evidence" that proves nothing... or quite simply because the CASA officials involved simply dont like the business operator.. the laws are written in such a way that anyone can be caught out by anything.. we are a nation of criminals who havnt been caught yet. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadstick Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 I get the impression that LSA and below aircraft are not budgeted for in the investigating budget. I spoke personally with a defect investigation rep ( nice guy) at Casa and when I told him I was having so much trouble with my jabiru' he laughed at me! Lol. He said that very rarely does anything Raa get investigated. I guess limited manpower and resources are an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I get the impression that LSA and below aircraft are not budgeted for in the investigating budget. I spoke personally with a defect investigation rep ( nice guy) at Casa and when I told him I was having so much trouble with my jabiru' he laughed at me! Lol. He said that very rarely does anything Raa get investigated. I guess limited manpower and resources are an issue. Under those circumstances then Casa should not ramp check at RAA functions nor should they do audits on RAA and CASA should stay out of RAA affairs if they are not interested in safety also LSA can be registered GA and CASA did certify the Jab engine so as I said before, the blame can be put straight at CASA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Waiting....... Well, Merv, since my identity would open up instantly and recognisably a channel of dispute [moderated], I'll meet you halfway. I have no more freedom to disclose these people than you have to disclose your 'sources' at RAA, so I imagine you'll understand my position. You're less than one hour drive away from me, and if that's your Rutan beastie in your avatar, you've flown over the top of my place on a number of occasions. PM me via the conversations module and we'll set up a meeting to discuss our issues, I'll pick you up at Mittagong airstrip if that's more convenient - it's 5 minutes away for me - give you coffee and lunch, and you can inspect my 'dog' (and be inspected by my dog). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Im not asking you to name your friends or contacts. Just yourself. So thats not meeting half way is it? My airfield is close to Mittagong, feel free to call in anytime. Watch the tiger country between us though, not good jab country. Ps, was that you that flew in with a young lady a few weeks ago? Took 3 landing attempts in calm air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Im not asking you to name your friends or contacts. Just yourself. So thats not meeting half way is it?My airfield is close to Mittagong, feel free to call in anytime. Watch the tiger country between us though, not good jab country. Ps, was that you that flew in with a young lady a few weeks ago? Took 3 landing attempts in calm air? Ah, wish it were for the company of the young lady, but my 'dog' isn't in the air yet. I've made the offer, Merv, and that's all you get (though the coffee, lunch and conversation offer stands). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Took 3 landing attempts in calm air? You usually speak a lot of sense Andy, but it hurts to see anyone criticised for cautiously aborting a landing that THEY aren't happy with, if they aren't happy as PIC, no one else is entitled to an opinion. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIRVTW Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Well this forum use to be very informative. Now all it is just a slanging match to see who has the last word. Im over this shit! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Rank. I would never criticize a pilot for making a decision to go around. The pilot I witnessed in this day just couldn't seem to manage the aeroplane onto the ground. Was a hundred feet high if not more every time. The decision to go around was not a decision really. More a necessity. The 800 meter strip was obviously out of the pilots ability. That gave me extreme concerns as it would have any instructor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Well this forum use to be very informative. Now all it is just a slanging match to see who has the last word. Im over this ****! True . I appolagise, it does nobody any good to see this sort if thing. THe worst thing is the message gets lost in the crap. And for that I am truely sorry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Well this forum use to be very informative. Now all it is just a slanging match to see who has the last word. Im over this ****! Noted. - Lots of posts removed. Trying to restore continuity. Edit: 32 posts in the sin bin! close to a record. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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