Solar power

[Russ]

$9k for 3.4kw with 4.5 inverter. Panels yank land, inverter German, definitely not the cheapest quote, but checking whirlpool etc, reports were good, actually damn good.

 

 

[Marty_d]

"Dirty solar"?It's all a conspiracy!

We need "brown" solar. Apparently a lot less dirty...

 

The thing that amuses me is the word "fracking" used in relation to CSG extraction. 'Cos anyone who saw the latest incarnation of Battlestar Galactica (Hey that's BSG... CSG... it IS a conspiracy...) knows that word had an altogether different meaning.

 

(For those who never saw the show, it was used as a replacement for another common "F" word).

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Kyles comment about solar being dirty wireless wise. ie not a clean sine wave got me thinking. My radio has got very noisy lately, probably since I had the solar upgraded.I turned the solar inverter off and instantly all the noise in the radio stopped, turned on again and it came back as the inverter fired up.

Will have to see what i can do to get clean power to the radio and maybe it is upsetting the computer as i can't send large files over the internet.

It is not so much the actual AC generated that is dirty..well it is as well but that is the low frequency stuff…what happens is the spikes produced by the switching of the inverter also have a harmonic component. This component multiplies the spikes frequency so what starts at say 50 hertz will also have spikes at 100 hz 150 hz 200 hz and almost going up in frequency forever but as they get higher they get smaller but still have enough power in them to affect radio waves that yu are trying to listen to. The AC interference is also a issue it can affect internet down the phone lines I have even seen wireless internet affected on 900 mhz. Any device that switches at a rate which could be anything from 100 to 400 hertz then the signal it is switch create a whole heap of other spuglies within the waveform and it is just a god awful mess at times. Some inverters are quite clean and then you go to the other end of the scale where they are just filthy dirty bags of crap. It is a real problem now with so many of these things around. it is not only solar inverters it is anything that switches basically. This is a simplistic explanation it is actually far more complex but should give you an idea

 

I will relate a situation I had here . My internet crashed from downloading at 400kb per sec (about 3.2 mb) to 10 kbs. I have a 2 ISP into my workshop on 2 different telephone lines going to my dual WAN router this is of course for backup for my radio wireless mesh network that we use to control our remote radio sites so if I lose one ISP it auto changes over to the other ISP. Well everything turned to crap..I fought with Bigpond and TPG for 6 weeks over this issue and they sent guys out to test the installation always trying to blame this installation and being a tech I KNEW it wasn't my gear at all. It was interference cause the loss of quality in my service. I was pulling my hair out trying to deal with numbskulls in Manilla and other places. This big pond tech turned up at my place one afternoon and asked me for help diagnosing a issue with next door and the internet…he was having trouble as well for quite a while. This dude at least had some brains his car was in next doors driveway…we live on big acreage blocks here so it was a little distance away his car radio was set on the AM broadcast channels and it was just a ferocious noise coming out of it and he was at a loss to explain it. I knew what the noise was so asked the people next door if I could do some faultfinding by turning off their 5 kw solar system and other circuits to determine where the issue was…they said no problems…I am a electrician as well as a radio tech by the way. I turned off the inverter and nothing changed..turned off circuits in the house then eventually the main switch and it is still screaming out of the car radio. I asked the owner if they had anything else she says oh yes we have a backup system that supplies her sons part of the house. he is a paraplegic and turns out his room is off grid essential so that when the power goes out his room and all of his medical equipment will still operate. She takes me into the garage and there is a huge battery bank and 3 of 3 kw dc 12volt to 240v AC inverters there powering all the equipment in his room. I fur off each inverter in turn and the noise is still there. The only thing left was a very expensive Danish made switch mode battery charger I turned it off and the silence was golden. The big pond guy's car radio fell silent. I got them all sorted next door with their power and asked him only to use the charger from late at night until 7am then turn it off until they get a replacement…The big pond guy was happy peter next door was happy and I came home here and I was back to my 400kb per sec download speed again. What was happening was the charger was dirty and impressing all that to the batteries which was being then amplified by the switchmose inverters this signal was going through the power into the room then into his modem router and being pushed down his telephone line and then infecting all the lines in the multicore cable all the way down the street. He replaced his charger with another expensive one in 2 days and my internet has been fine since.

 

Mark

 

 

[Russ]

Reported on the news today,.....the 8cent rebate, is to be AXED, to zero rebate, effective later this yr. Govt is saying ....go and seek your own best deals with providers.

 

Bombshell,.......the 44cent rebate, stays.

 

Go figure.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Reported on the news today,.....the 8cent rebate, is to be AXED, to zero rebate, effective later this yr. Govt is saying ....go and seek your own best deals with providers.Bombshell,.......the 44cent rebate, stays.

Go figure.

It doesn't worry me, I have a 3 KW system (3.6 KW inverter) and I installed it to alleviate my power bill, I didn't install it to sell excess power back to the government.

 

 

[kgwilson]

It isn't a Federal subsidy. Each state has determined the subsidies it provides. NSW axed the subsidies after the previous stupid labor govt was giving 60c per kwh produced regardless of whether you used it or exported it to the grid. Those who spent up large & have been reaping the benefits of getting a cheque instead of a power bill should almost be able to pay their systems off by the time the 5 year period runs out. Labor was going broke because of this folly. O'Farrell tried to stop it but the contracts were legal documents so they had to give in. The system was stopped dead in it's tracks going from 60c/kwh to zero.

 

The reality is that the 44c QLD govt subsidy ends on 1 July this year. I am not sure of the contracts but after that date putting solar on the roof will get you only what the retail electricity company says it will pay for your exported power. Probably in the vicinity of 6c/kwh like NSW. You can get more but then you pay more for whatever you use from the grid as well. STCs (small scale technology certificates) created by the Renewable Energy Act 2000 are traded like shares and the value changes daily. One STC was roughly equal to one mega watt hour of generation. There used to be a multiplier of up to 5 so the credit was 5 times your output but this was reduced to 1 in January 2013. When you buy a PV system most retailers deduct the STC price from the total cost of the system. Costs though have nosedived & a $30k system 5 years ago will now cost about $5k. Do the research, don't believe the solar retailers & remember if you get a grid connected system you will still pay the same access cost as you always did whether you use any imported energy or not.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Lithium Iron Phoshate is here now. It outperforms lead acid about seven fold. Expensive but will only get cheaper with economies of scale.

What about Lithium Ion, last five times longer than lead, and convenient, 7.1 kVh only weighs 200Kg. http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=3018.

 

Must be a bit going on in solar at the moment, I had three calls yesterday from Sub-continental salesmen trying to get me to take up their "program", They didn't answer the phone when I rang back today.

 

 

[Marty_d]

... I had three calls yesterday from Sub-continental salesmen...

My usual response to an Indian accent is to hang up. Which got me into trouble when the doctor treating my father-in-law rang to speak to my wife recently.

 

 

[biggles]

It doesn't worry me, I have a 3 KW system (3.6 KW inverter) and I installed it to alleviate my power bill, I didn't install it to sell excess power back to the government.

Good thinking Dazza . I think many have been told a 'crock ' , leading them to believe that by selling back to the grid ,they can look forward to an early retirement

 

Bob

 

 

[rankamateur]

It doesn't worry me, I have a 3 KW system (3.6 KW inverter) and I installed it to alleviate my power bill, I didn't install it to sell excess power back to the government.

We work while the sun shines and live inside while it is dark so battery technology improvements are slowly making stand alone solar a viable alternative for us, we use so little power during the daylight that tariff free feed-in is a community service I couldn't be bothered getting involved in. Any one who has a day job would need a maid to get value out of grid connect!

 

 

[jetjr]

Had an interesting talk to experienced solar guy, reckons the newer Li ion batteries are just a generation away from being good (and theres another type even better not far away too, like few years)

 

Something to do with charging system needing additional feedback wiring from each cell. In a big battery bank this is LOTS of little wires and they are prone to damage and therefore failure.

 

Still recommends AGM after having a few Li ion setups, physically bigger, need more of them but robust and little cheaper.

 

No ones very serious about wet cell anymore, too much maint which doesnt get done

 

 

[kgwilson]

Generally speaking if you are connected to the grid putting anything bigger than a 2kW system on the roof is a waste of money. The biggest single item on my bill is the service fee. $122.28 for the last 3 months. We run the washing machine, dishwasher, etc during the day because we are here & still I exported 521 kWh (at 6 cents per kWh) for the same period from my 2 kW system, used from the grid 149 kWh at peak times, 142 kWh shoulder & 423 kWh off peak. If I had a 3 kW system I'd just export more for very low return. I would use a bit extra of what I generate but only when say, running the toaster & electric jug at the same time.

 

What you need to work out is the return on the investment which for me is working out at about 11%-12%. Money in the bank is only returning about 3-4% so it is still worth doing without the subsidies. I have assumed a system life of 10 years because that is the warranty period for the inverter.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Thought I would put one of these http://www.yinglisolar.com/au/products/offgrid/ylsy-1600-series/ on the roof and they can get stuffed with the power bills!

 

 

[dazza 38]

We work while the sun shines and live inside while it is dark so battery technology improvements are slowly making stand alone solar a viable alternative for us, we use so little power during the daylight that tariff free feed-in is a community service I couldn't be bothered getting involved in. Any one who has a day job would need a maid to get value out of grid connect!

I work FIFO two weeks on / two weeks off. Plus every year we have a six weeks off in a row (FIFO 2 weeks off plus 4 weeks annual leave added together.) I am at home for nearly 7 months of the year.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I work FIFO two weeks on / two weeks off. Plus every year we have a six weeks off in a row (FIFO 2 weeks off plus 4 weeks annual leave added together.) I am at home for nearly 7 months of the year.

You could be the maid then! Gotta get nice little apron.

 

 

[Marty_d]

You could be the maid then! Gotta get nice little apron.

Might need to get rid of that moustache, unless he wants to be more Greek maid than French...

 

 

[eightyknots]

It is not so much the actual AC generated that is dirty..well it is as well but that is the low frequency stuff…what happens is the spikes produced by the switching of the inverter also have a harmonic component. This component multiplies the spikes frequency so what starts at say 50 hertz will also have spikes at 100 hz 150 hz 200 hz and almost going up in frequency forever but as they get higher they get smaller but still have enough power in them to affect radio waves that yu are trying to listen to. The AC interference is also a issue it can affect internet down the phone lines I have even seen wireless internet affected on 900 mhz. Any device that switches at a rate which could be anything from 100 to 400 hertz then the signal it is switch create a whole heap of other spuglies within the waveform and it is just a god awful mess at times. Some inverters are quite clean and then you go to the other end of the scale where they are just filthy dirty bags of crap. It is a real problem now with so many of these things around. it is not only solar inverters it is anything that switches basically. This is a simplistic explanation it is actually far more complex but should give you an ideaI will relate a situation I had here . My internet crashed from downloading at 400kb per sec (about 3.2 mb) to 10 kbs. I have a 2 ISP into my workshop on 2 different telephone lines going to my dual WAN router this is of course for backup for my radio wireless mesh network that we use to control our remote radio sites so if I lose one ISP it auto changes over to the other ISP. Well everything turned to crap..I fought with Bigpond and TPG for 6 weeks over this issue and they sent guys out to test the installation always trying to blame this installation and being a tech I KNEW it wasn't my gear at all. It was interference cause the loss of quality in my service. I was pulling my hair out trying to deal with numbskulls in Manilla and other places. This big pond tech turned up at my place one afternoon and asked me for help diagnosing a issue with next door and the internet…he was having trouble as well for quite a while. This dude at least had some brains his car was in next doors driveway…we live on big acreage blocks here so it was a little distance away his car radio was set on the AM broadcast channels and it was just a ferocious noise coming out of it and he was at a loss to explain it. I knew what the noise was so asked the people next door if I could do some faultfinding by turning off their 5 kw solar system and other circuits to determine where the issue was…they said no problems…I am a electrician as well as a radio tech by the way. I turned off the inverter and nothing changed..turned off circuits in the house then eventually the main switch and it is still screaming out of the car radio. I asked the owner if they had anything else she says oh yes we have a backup system that supplies her sons part of the house. he is a paraplegic and turns out his room is off grid essential so that when the power goes out his room and all of his medical equipment will still operate. She takes me into the garage and there is a huge battery bank and 3 of 3 kw dc 12volt to 240v AC inverters there powering all the equipment in his room. I fur off each inverter in turn and the noise is still there. The only thing left was a very expensive Danish made switch mode battery charger I turned it off and the silence was golden. The big pond guy's car radio fell silent. I got them all sorted next door with their power and asked him only to use the charger from late at night until 7am then turn it off until they get a replacement…The big pond guy was happy peter next door was happy and I came home here and I was back to my 400kb per sec download speed again. What was happening was the charger was dirty and impressing all that to the batteries which was being then amplified by the switchmose inverters this signal was going through the power into the room then into his modem router and being pushed down his telephone line and then infecting all the lines in the multicore cable all the way down the street. He replaced his charger with another expensive one in 2 days and my internet has been fine since.

 

Mark

Wow! ...an amazing fault find story. Almost needle-in-a-haystack stuff. There must be heaps of these units in the country of origin: I wonder how they get on with their internet speeds in Denmark?

 

 

[techie49]

I know it's slightly off thread, but on the subject of interference to radio and tv reception , it's not only inverters in PV systems that are a rising problem. If you are replacing halogen down lights with LED units - beware. I bought a pack of 12V LED units from Bunnings. Two went into the lounge to replace halogen lights in an alcove. They worked great. Recently though, we changed to digital TV around here. I'd installed a second antenna outside to cover one end of the house rather than tap in to an existing one. All was well until nightfall. The picture was breaking up badly and was unwatchable. What the hell was the problem? Bear in mind the lights had been in weeks before digital TV. A thought struck me - a rarity ok! Turned the lights off and Bingo! I ended up putting ferrite rings on each of the short twin cables to the actual LED lamps. All became quiet. So can someone tell me, how the hell can we be importing all this Chinese crap with apparently no constraints on EMC? HF radio in Australia will become unusable very rapidly with all the interference being generated by the plethora of poor quality electronic devices. The problem is of course it's a gradual slide into the noise and most people would not be aware. From my experience , digital TV will potentially be severely affected by RF noise so maybe the overall problem will come to public awareness when we are all on DTV.

 

Paul