turboplanner Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 And just so this particular post doesn't go stale anytime soon... ....ops have confirmed this morning yet another J230 engine failure and emergency landing last Sunday in the Townsville area. Do we know the name of this unfortunate person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 ItIt has always been a requirement or recommendation Motz...ATSB has recently formalized it and I believe it's in our ops manual.... The same should go for defects found that didnt result in an "incident" I reckon. I know the culture is NOT to report things, but IMHO thats exactly the reason why this has been aloud to go on for so long. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVOCET Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I hope ItIt has always been a requirement or recommendation Motz...ATSB has recently formalized it and I believe it's in our ops manual.... i hope this doesnt mean that an incident report is required by law every time ive hit a cane toad while taxiing , Or the numerous other day to day things , like flat tyres or batteries , ect. I think if every operator of an ultralight DID bother to report every " incident " You'd need the combined burocrecy Of canberra to " file and reply ". Personly , in my time of aviation , and probly you to ,have heared of countless " incidents " that really dont need a form filled out and submitted . Mike . 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 On the other hand Mike if a Drifter goes end over end because the idiot is flying in the dark, and he puts it in his shed and hides it under a tarp and doesn't make an accident/incident report on it we all suffer due to distorted data. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 New manuals out 14/10 Got an email from Jabiru saying they were available - pretty good I thought. Has info re flywheel bolts inspection and replacement also valve spring washer inspection 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 We Do we know the name of this unfortunate person? We do, but not for me to name him on this site...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 WeWe do, but not for me to name him on this site...... POST DOES NOT ADD VALUE - MOD 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Regardless of wether he wants to participate or not Frank, he has done the responsible thing in reporting the second major engine failure in as many weeks, thus further highlighting a continuing safety problem to users of this forum. That was the safe thing to do, unlike others who may choose to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it didn't' happen...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 WeWe do, but not for me to name him on this site...... Well Maj, you haven't been backward in coming forward with info in the past when you have an axe to grind. IMHO 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 POST EDITED AS IT DOES NOT ADD VALUE - MOD the individual complied with requirements . I'll give you some personal advice next time I see you. Nothing more from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 the individual complied with requirements .I'll give you some personal advice next time I see you. Nothing more from me. So he/ she complied with all the requirements and the engine still imploded ? I really feel for the owner, that is terrible, I hope the factory helps him/her out. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planedriver Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Hope so, but in the mean time i'm going to research the word "Buckley's" 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Well Maj, you haven't been backward in coming forward with info in the past when you have an axe to grind.IMHO No axe to grind...but I do believe in letting everyone know what's going on....especially when it's a safety matter that may affect us all negativly if it keeps occurring. If this was a car it would have been recalled or removed from the market years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 So what has been done this week to allow LSA owners to implement upgrades when they become available? Has the issue of LSA restrictions been raised with anyone? What does CASA have to say on the issue? In action of Raa board is an ongoing problem thats also in our interest to see resolved. POST EDITED AS IT DOES NOT ADD VALUE - MOD 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 So what have you done this week to allow LSA owners to implement upgrades when they become available? Has the issue of LSA restrictions been raised with anyone? What does CASA have to say on the issue?In action of Raa board is an ongoing problem thats also in our interest to see resolved. Yes your right, I'm pretty much over it by now...especially when it starts effecting people I know. I have been watching these things fail since they first came on the market ( about 25 years ago) with a persistent lack of real improvement by the manufacturers, and often arrogant disdane for the real money that fellow flyers are, and have lost over the years. Yes an unreliable aircraft engine leaves a bad taste in my mouth for sure. More than happy to look at your LSA concernes if you can be more specific about what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I don't disagree with something being done, but it has to be measured , not as a result of emotion, and frustration, anger etc and in a context of not to a great extent knowing what the specific cause(s) is /are.? Has anybody been game enough to get up and do this? If so, I've missed seeing it We know what the RESULTS are, to a point. It's not in the movements interest or almost anybody's to ground this motor. The ramifications are too deep. People will be sent broke I also don't know where the expertise that is needed will come from to properly analyse, and recommend changes /modifications to improve it's in the field reliability without all the issues becoming confused. Major modifications would require a redesign from the ground up, and that's not economical, or feasible in practical terms . I'm going to hear about what price for a life etc Well that argument could be used to ground the whole movement. One week this motor, next week YOUR favourite project, perhaps. Nev 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01rmb Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I would like to have the most perfect 100% aircraft reliability and maybe there is a solution out there but what do you expect to happen? Jabiru to 'fix the problem' and upgrade everyone for free? If as you say it is a new block, pistons and valves then it will be millions of dollars for Jabiru to give everyone or have everyone to buy a new engine - it won't happen. What other options are there even if there was a simple 'fix' to the problem'? CASA grounds every Jabiru indefinitely until the 'fix' is applied? The 'f'ix' costs thousands or tens of thousands of dollars requiring every Jabiru aircraft owner to apply? Mandatory LAME maintenance or annual inspections for just all Jabiru or all LSA aircraft? Aircraft are restricted to 500ft and don't cross roads? If you invite the big bad regulator to take action you don't know what is going to be the outcome! Some people are getting reasonable service and with good operation, vigilance and maintenance are getting good life. Ultimately everyone would like to have more reliable engines/aircraft possible but we are talking a thousand (or more?) Jabiru aircraft and many more pilots affected by this even if the actions are restricted to Jabiru aircraft but it could affect every RAA aircraft if rules are applied without due consideration. Maybe the 'fix' is simple but if it was then I am sure it would have be applied by now. In a crusade to help everyone it may just kill the industry, bankrupt aircraft manufacturer/s, permanently grounding thousands of aircraft and pilots or at least costing everyone thousands of dollars. Airfields could become like elephant grave yards with LSA aircraft scattered around the field and in hangers slowly rotting away. How would dropping even just a third of aircraft and pilots from the RAA affect cash flow income? Melodramatic maybe but just look at he reaction to a $40 increase in fees to cover the shortfall due to the magazine. Efforts would have been better off being applied to working with Jabiru, other aircraft manufacturers/suppliers and the regulator to find ways to improve reliability and have them applied to all aircraft at the best cost - in the interest of the total recreational aviation industry this is the only solution. 5 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Oh and its not a car, and you sure do appear to have an axe to grind Cute, however it is a consumer product, and I'm amazed at the couldn't care less attitude to fellow aircraft owners who, apart from having their lives put at risk, have suffered substantial financial losses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I'll bet me left **** if Camit had the $$$ a reliable engine ( possibly certified ) would be on offer. Hearing just some of their "changes" mooted, sounds good to me.....and others here. I'm of the view "they" Camit, have several strings to their bow, all constrained by $$ . Just my views..... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ok, so if you were in that situation Tubs what exactly would you do? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ground the aircraft; that would put some urgency into the matter. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Money ???.........whose doing all the expensive repairs to the broken Jabs, who's billing the insurance companies for those repairs, whose doing all the tear downs of the failed engines, whose fitting and selling all the 'new' replacement engines, who's selling the new props, front nose legs, spinners, windshield, main landing gear legs,.........don't tell me the money is not there...it needs to be put into a bit of proper R & D so the product is improved.......and why aren 't the people doing all the broken engine tear downs,telling us what is failing ?.....time after time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ground the aircraft; that would put some urgency into the matter. ...and lose a highly successful Australian manufacturer, who can deliver world-class aeroplanes in this country cheaper than the imports? Australia has always been good at shooting itself in the foot. We have so many "could have been" stories. With the demise of our car industry, this country should be awash with design engineers and manufacturing capacity. In WWII our car industry quickly changed over to building aircraft, artillery, etc. With a bit of governmental "Direct Intervention" surely Jabiru can be helped to improve their engine? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Yes, arm-waving without knowledge of the cause is likely to be counter-productive; unless CASA is to simply ground the 3300 engines, the precise cause has to be identified. What is it that is actually failing? Is the valve itself failing, or is the spring washer failing, or is the seat coming loose, or what? The sensible approach is for a fix to be provided via a Service Bulletin, and then, if it chooses to, for CASA to mandate that via an AD. But before that can happen, somebody has to find a fix, and before THAT can happen, they have to identify the root cause of the problem. I've seen some evidence of exhaust-valve stem erosion leading to a fatigue failure, but is that yet proven to be more than an isolated instance? If it is, what's causing it? Until these things are known, no intelligent response is possible. More deeply, what is preventing Ian Bent from implementing his mods? Is Jabiru being pig-headed about CAMit making APMA parts? POST EDITED AS IT DOES NOT ADD VALUE - MOD 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Ok ground them and then what? It seems to me victory would seem elusive...pyric victory is probably very easy to achieve I want the issue, if it exists,solved but in doing so I don't want J or for that matter C to cease to exist. Sowhat would you do to turn this into a war winning outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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