jetjr Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Bit more serious than that I heard, new aircraft in Melb was down for weeks. Good to see manufacturer supporting customer, but at their price premium they had better be near perfect. I dont understand your question or for that matter some of your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 @jetjr you where talking about Jab "solutions". Rotax manufacturing and quality control is as good as you will get but its still mass produced product. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Ross I KNOW that you have info on what raaus have done about thiswhy dont you share it with us ? When our management says Ok. ( RAA ) ....it's not Ross's call to make. If.......your that sure a directive is in the wings.....chase up head office yourself. ( hangin there Ross, and the other reps here, giving feedback here re RAA would be Difficult at times, some folks get a sniff of a matter, then demand answers, often prematurely. ........ Said it before..." Damned if you do, damned if you don't ) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (Deb Wrote) Ross I KNOW that you have info on what raaus have done about this why dont you share it with us ? If your so keen to know Deb join the RAA board, then you will be as privy as Maj & the rest of the board members so until then just wait like the rest of us dear :-) Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Bit more serious than that I heard, new aircraft in Melb was down for weeks.Good to see manufacturer supporting customer, but at their price premium they had better be near perfect. I dont understand your question or for that matter some of your comments. jetjr, Yes correct, I do believe they had fuel injection problems early on in the piece, computer software issues I am led to believe unless of course there were other issues I am unaware of, I personally haven't followed this new engine from Rotax but have heard a few grumblings about it from time to time. Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 but then we ARE the clever country aren't we.? Nope. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 @jetjr you where talking about Jab "solutions".. No I didnt Im saying there are big efforts being made and they should be supported. Those efforts could be derailed with a poorly thought out response from regulators. Sounds like head office is about to take some action without referring to membership AND its a secret until its officially released. In the mean time lets keep the debate and innuendo going? The more things change the more they stay the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Ross I KNOW that you have info on what raaus have done about thiswhy dont you share it with us ? Not about to Deborah, or Brent, or whatever your name is........It is your privelage however to write or Email your CEO or Ops manager requesting the info you seek...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 You have to wonder how bad the problem can be if Jabiru don't want to fix it, how bad can it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 When an engine is returned to Jabiru for repairs a report is done detailing the cause . That report of the failure is available to the owner and yet I cannot recall one ever being published on these forums . The facts are , that continually running these engines overheated will lead to a failure . Unfortunately many " simple "repairs are done by people that may well be good general mechanics , but do not fully appreciate the operation or the thermal cycling/metal technology of an air cooled alloy aircraft engine , opposed to a liquid cooled car or aircraft engine . Sadly, even some that complete the maintenance course at Jabiru believe they know better , by either fitting non standard valve guides or failing to ream to the correct valve /guide clearance .As sure as night follows day ,either one , and operating over temp will result in valve failure . Even putting additives into the fuel , which is something I hear about every second day , can result in a buildup over time causing valves to jam open . In summary , I believe that many failures are not due to the basic engine design/construction ,but the result of either faulty operation ,workmanship /repair , due to the apparent simplicity of the engine . Bob 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 You have to wonder how bad the problem can be if Jabiru don't want to fix it, how bad can it be? " medically speaking" .......it's " stubbornness syndrome" , incurable I believe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Getting back to my axe to grind....( Jab Phil post #185)....... Axe to grind or not, I can guarantee you all right now that I have no intention to stop highlighting Jabs engine problems, until such time as I see the factory start to actually do something about it, which is my whole intention in the first place for making noise. Simply saying ' oh it's a maintenance problem' doesn't cut it with me. All the other engines are maintained by the same level of maintainers and they don't drop their guts at 250-400 hours. I think the open market will ultimately take care of things, if Jab doesn't fix their problems. Information I have on increased orders from overseas on 912 and other powered aircraft that easily match the performance of any Jab......points the way to the future I feel. Additionally a new group of members are increasingly starting to swell the ranks of RAAus.......referred to by one dealer as "Cessna Refugees" they are already showing a decided preference for Euro imports with reliable engines, and appear to have plenty of money to spend. Jab may well miss this boat in more ways than one. I mean...who uses an axe anymore anyway...I have a very nice Sthil chainsaw thank you !............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Getting back to my axe to grind....( Jab Phil post #185).....I mean...who uses an axe anymore anyway...I have a very nice Sthil chainsaw thank you !............. Oh boy! There's a frightening mental image! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 POST DOES NOT ADD VALUE - MOD 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Interested which imported aircraft can match a J230 performance? When engine reliability improves, whoever does it, its a world beater. Honestly, Cessna Reffo's are better off with set and forget 912. "Factory built" expectations and operation are part of the problem. Do us all a favour and let the market do its work, more noise is just damaging existing owners, Jabiru arent listening to you. I have a Stihl too, bought it based on good reputation, have spent 3 times its value in repairs and its still a dog. Should I ask for a new one? Dealer now says "yeah that model was always a problem, want to upgrade?" Have had similar with Ford utes, commodores, Patrols, Hiluxes, JD and CASE tractors, headers, cotton pickers, countless computers and phones. Now I regularly sit in board rooms hearing managers getting worked up about warranty and breakdowns, whos fault, they promised etc etc. At end of the day you can sit and argue forever or get on with it, work with someone trustworthy get what you can from manufacturer or supplier and get the plant operating again. its the ONLY cost effective way forward. Just remember who helped you and make sure hes fed well enough to stay in business. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 My Sthil always starts first time and keeps running....you have to remember to tip out the old fuel and put in fresh....but then I'm probabily used to set and forget type engines ...........Jab may not be listening to me but they will hear their accountant when he tells them sales have gone through the floor !.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01rmb Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Good on you for trying to improve Jabiru engine reliability (very commendable) but all this public criticism 'Jabiru engines are bad and CASA should intervene because Jabiru won't do anything' simply hurts current aircraft owners not Jabiru. And with typical bureaucratic fallout any actions by CASA may have flow on ramifications which affect every light sport aircraft owner. Aircraft owners are the members that you are meant to be represent as a member of the RA-Aus board, they should not become victims of your battle with Jabiru. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 @jetjr most RAA pilots aren't ever going to need to take a hay bail 1000 miles. GA and a 172 also give you the option of flying at night. so its swings and roundabouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Interested which imported aircraft can match a J230 performance?When engine reliability improves, whoever does it, its a world beater. Honestly, Cessna Reffo's are better off with set and forget 912. "Factory built" expectations and operation are part of the problem. Do us all a favour and let the market do its work, more noise is just damaging existing owners, Jabiru arent listening to you. I have a Stihl too, bought it based on good reputation, have spent 3 times its value in repairs and its still a dog. Should I ask for a new one? Dealer now says "yeah that model was always a problem, want to upgrade?" Have had similar with Ford utes, commodores, Patrols, Hiluxes, JD and CASE tractors, headers, cotton pickers, countless computers and phones. Now I regularly sit in board rooms hearing managers getting worked up about warranty and breakdowns, whos fault, they promised etc etc. At end of the day you can sit and argue forever or get on with it, work with someone trustworthy get what you can from manufacturer or supplier and get the plant operating again. its the ONLY cost effective way forward. Just remember who helped you and make sure hes fed well enough to stay in business. POST DOES NOT ADD VALUE - MOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 That's nice to know, particularly if the engines can be adapted and solve the perceived problem. This will end bad, I feel. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhysmcc Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Good on you for trying to improve Jabiru engine reliability (very commendable) but all this public criticism 'Jabiru engines are bad and CASA should intervene because Jabiru won't do anything' simply hurts current aircraft owners not Jabiru. And with typical bureaucratic fallout any actions by CASA may have flow on ramifications which affect every light sport aircraft owner.Aircraft owners are the members that you are meant to be represent as a member of the RA-Aus board, they should not become victims of your battle with Jabiru. Trying to improve reliability of any aircraft or engine should fall within the responsibility of RA-AUS (thus the board). The board are there not only to represent the members but act in the best interests of the association. While its great to be considerate of member's interest in ownership and value of investment, it ranks quite low when compared to the safety of members and the general public. And at the end of the day, isn't trying to make the product more reliable for future owners (who may not be aware of the reliability) a higher priority then a decrease in the value of the brands secondhand aircraft? Personally I fly a Jab, think it's a great aircraft and not come across any problems. However I'm not it's owner nor it's maintainer, as much as I would like to own my own aircraft, buying into a Jab doesn't make sense until this can be resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Choose your words carefully - in what way do you imagine the RAA Board is competent to improve the reliability of an aircraft or engine? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 It will not be dangerous when grounded. (Sounds like the CASA mantra.) Do we then go after the other threats to life in the front of the other planes then? . The organisation should act in the best interests of ALL the members. No one is forced to buy a jabiru. It is still more safe than many others I could name (but won't) How many people have actually been killed in them so far? How many have flown across the continent.and to New Zealand.? How are they more reliable in South Africa? Let's know EXACTLY what we are doing before we do something that doesn't achieve what the organisation needs. Nev 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 POST DOES NOT ADD VALUE - MOD 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Just ban motors, and have done with it. Go gliding instead . . . 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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