Suggestions for amendments to Constitution

[DonRamsay]

Let's get specific.

 

If anyone has a set of words that they think should be used to amend the RAAus Ltd Constitution can you post them here please?

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, I am doing a line by line review myself and will form an opinion on what, if anything, I think could be improved. I start with a view that it is not easy to read but then that is not peculiar to this Constitution. The old one wasn't easy until you'd read it >20 times.

 

Others coming from a different experience will see things differently and that is a good thing.

 

As you probably know, I am not a Director just an ordinary member and my review is being undertaken without reference to or support or opposition from the new Board.

 

No point commenting on the form of incorporation, that is a done deal.

 

Please, no general moaning. More like "this is not right and it should read as follows . . . "

 

So, please share your thoughts with us here.

 

 

[storchy neil]

How about some you persons reading the the costituation and picking out the specific rules that apply to their grievance

 

I myself tried this back in twenty ten and was accused off bringing Raaus into disrepute and threatened with expulsion

 

Yes their are certain persons that are doing this and are striking a brick wall I do ad mire their persistence and hope that that they continue to make make it public through this site as the number of hits that are made on some subjects

 

So speculation as to what can be done and what is legal for you to do is so muddy to some

 

On reporting by me of an incident that occurred I was told in writing that it not revelant to raaus but the regulator in writing said it was raaus responsibility to address the issue

 

By putting a greivence on here or to raaus in writing is the only way that it can be done personally speaking

 

How about avaite navergate comunercate respectergate because we will loose every thing that has been atteived So far yes have your say in what you believe in but have the thinking hat on will it do harm to others or will be in the best interest of a few or the majority Neil

 

 

[coljones]

Let's get specific.If anyone has a set of words that they think should be used to amend the RAAus Ltd Constitution can you post them here please?

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, I am doing a line by line review myself and will form an opinion on what, if anything, I think could be improved. I start with a view that it is not easy to read but then that is not peculiar to this Constitution. The old one wasn't easy until you'd read it >20 times.

 

Others coming from a different experience will see things differently and that is a good thing.

 

As you probably know, I am not a Director just an ordinary member and my review is being undertaken without reference to or support or opposition from the new Board.

 

No point commenting on the form of incorporation, that is a done deal.

 

Please, no general moaning. More like "this is not right and it should read as follows . . . "

 

So, please share your thoughts with us here.

Thanks Don, we also need to have a bit of philosophy before we craft a rule to suit. ie.

1. Notice of meeting and call for proposals and supporting narrative 56 days out

 

2. Close of proposals and supporting narrative 28 days out

 

3. Issue of formal agenda including proposals to receive reports individually, and proposals received at least 28 days out and the supporting narrative and proxy forms (21 days out)

 

4. Receive from members comments on prposals (14 days out)

 

5. Circulate comments (10 days out).

 

We also need to determine what resolutions can be put to the meeting without notice eg procedural motions and receipt of reports and thank yous or condemnation of the board

 

I will have to think up some Electoral rules but we need to work out if we want preferential where each candidate needs the support of the majority to get elected or proportional representation where each candidate gets elected in proportion to their support.

 

The difficulty with the last process was that it went away to cut rules without floating philosophy to the members first.

 

 

[bull]

Pull ya head in Bull.I am absolutely sick of the poor me attitude of the moaners and groaners about the demise of rag and tube flying! Here Don has started a thread which could be used constructively and the first reply is just another whine.

 

Other than the proposed inspections for home built aircraft (which I strongly agree should NOT be mandatory!) what rule changes have been introduced that negatively affect rag and tube? what rule changes can you suggest that would increase the freedoms of rag and tube aircraft?

 

I just wish people could be a bit more constructive, some of these threads are getting downright depressing.

ONE, fee increases and no magazine so raa can cover the cost of lobbying for cta access ,heavier mtow etc ,,for what is an apparently very small percentage of members who can afford it AUF?RAA was formed because it provided a means for the average person to fly, the average person who could not afford the cost of GA training and ga aircraft ownership etc What about those members who don't want cta access or cant afford it ,or simply want to fly around the paddock etc Who want to fly a relatively simple aircraft at a cost that they could afford with minimal regulation or to build that dream and do it in their garage or shed etc and fly the result of their own hands. without the cost of paying an inspecter to come check, what to me is a creation that if I, gunna sit in it and fly ,well I am going to make sure its safe and have as many other experienced pilots and builders come over for a beer or coffee and check it out ,,,,,,Dons post about '''what gives someone the right to say yes or no to him to fly into Sydney harbour cta etc says it all ,why should,anyone who has abided by the proven regs and formula that we already have, need someone ,at serious costs to me, have the right to tell me I can or cant fly ÄT MY OWN RISK as the placard in front of my face very boldly says,,,,,something that I have built under those regs that already are a proven formula as per accident reports and raa data, sorry grammar was not one of my strong points ,

 

 

[Yenn]

I sent my recommendations to RAAus before the vote and got nowhere. I don't intend wasting my time for an organisation tht will not listen. I will possibly go to ELAAA or re register GA.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Yes yen my fees came up end last month thought long and hard do I pay or not can I just walk away no I can't as I would just let raaus continue to spin out off control paid up to be able to voice my opinion Neil

 

 

[Yenn]

I hope someone is listening Storchy

 

 

[coljones]

Yes yen my fees came up end last month thought long and hard do I pay or not can I just walk away no I can't as I would just let raaus continue to spin out off control paid up to be able to voice my opinion Neil

RAA was in an uncontrolled spiral dive of death 5 years ago. Correction was applied at the Qeanbeyan EGM and while there are a few wrinkles the organisation is now doing relatively well despite all the issues the Reid/Runciman board refused to face. There were some good guys there but they were whistling in the wind. I am not sure of the predilection of the new board but I hope they have moved to singing the same song from the same song sheet but with equal independent input.

 

 

[bull]

RAA was in an uncontrolled spiral dive of death 5 years ago. Correction was applied at the Qeanbeyan EGM and while there are a few wrinkles the organisation is now doing relatively well despite all the issues the Reid/Runciman board refused to face. There were some good guys there but they were whistling in the wind. I am not sure of the predilection of the new board but I hope they have moved to singing the same song from the same song sheet but with equal independent input.

Don't know about that col, cause for quite a few members the ground is still spiralling in the windscreen and getting closer for Raa with other options soon to become available I cant see a lot of us putting up with the GA way of raa,s any longer.

[coljones]

Don't know about that col, cause for quite a few members the ground is still spiralling in the windscreen and getting closer for Raa with other options soon to become available I cant see a lot of us putting up with the GA way of raa,s any longer.

We beg to differ but I hope we both win for the sake of better flying for everyone.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I'm a relative newcomer to recreational aviation having only been certified for a little over 3 years. In that time I have purchased a rag and tube machine ( Air Creation Tanarg 912ES ) and have logged over 200hrs. To date my organisation, RAA has been a joy to fly under. No hassles with paperwork or renewals, great information flow, good online interface to name a few.

 

My main concern is that if certain parties manage to fragment our sport resulting in a number of associations then none of them will remain financially viable for long.

 

 

[bull]

I'm a relative newcomer to recreational aviation having only been certified for a little over 3 years. In that time I have purchased a rag and tube machine ( Air Creation Tanarg 912ES ) and have logged over 200hrs. To date my organisation, RAA has been a joy to fly under. No hassles with paperwork or renewals, great information flow, good online interface to name a few.My main concern is that if certain parties manage to fragment our sport resulting in a number of associations then none of them will remain financially viable for long.

Certain parties or concerned members,depends how you look at it I suppose,And a monopoly [dictatorship] is certainly no good for our sport either,re, excess fees increases to cater for a minority of members to have GA privligives in a sport that was formatted to escape the spiralling costs of ga training and flying for the average person with average incomes in the first place......just my look at things.....

 

 

[Nick Sieczkowski]

Certain parties or concerned members,depends how you look at it I suppose,And a monopoly [dictatorship] is certainly no good for our sport either,re, excess fees increases to cater for a minority of members to have GA privligives in a sport that was formatted to escape the spiralling costs of ga training and flying for the average person with average incomes in the first place......just my look at things.....

Just out of interest, what do you think we should be paying for membership, bull? As a comparison, Gliding Federation Australia annual membership is $270, plus you have to be a member of a gliding club which looks like it varies between around $90 and $310 per year. The Hang Gliding Federation of Australia is $314 plus a sport development levy of $22-$75 depending on which state you live in. Both organisations include a subscription to their bi-monthly magazines.

 

 

[bull]

nplus

 

Just out of interest, what do you think we should be paying for membership, bull? As a comparison, Gliding Federation Australia annual membership is $270, plus you have to be a member of a gliding club which looks like it varies between around $90 and $310 per year. The Hang Gliding Federation of Australia is $314 plus a sport development levy of $22-$75 depending on which state you live in. Both organisations include a subscription to their bi-monthly magazines.

A very good example provided by you there nick ,ok lets have a look at that shall we,,,1 our membership fees ,[pilots certificate renewal yearly $215 ]aircraft registration per year $140,,, biannual costs for two years $150 so $75 per year ,,magazine subscription ,,$90 per year so add that up for each year equals $510 per year for the same benefits that HGFA get for $$336 per year ,, 2 now gliding federation of Australia $270 annual membership plus club fees splitting your est,$210 per year magazine included no rego costs from gfa so $480 per year ..Now lets line them up ah total yearly costs RAA $510 including magazine $420 without magazine,, so far plus cta,, rego transfers fees and what ever else they come up with next,HGFA $336 per year including magazine GFA $480 per year including magazine and club membership, Can you please show me anything about these fees that warrant your post asking me what I think they should be Nick???????? an across the board fee structure that includes aircraft rego and magazine and pilots certificate and takes into account of all the other associated costs ie biannuals rego transfers, rego number allocations etc etc etc would be a more realistic figure would it not Nick??

 

 

[Nick Sieczkowski]

nplusA very good example provided by you there nick ,ok lets have a look at that shall we,,,1 our membership fees ,[pilots certificate renewal yearly $215 ]aircraft registration per year $140,,, biannual costs for two years $150 so $75 per year ,,magazine subscription ,,$90 per year so add that up for each year equals $510 per year for the same benefits that HGFA get for $$336 per year ,, 2 now gliding federation of Australia $270 annual membership plus club fees splitting your est,$210 per year magazine included no rego costs from gfa so $480 per year ..Now lets line them up ah total yearly costs RAA $510 including magazine $420 without magazine,, so far plus cta,, rego transfers fees and what ever else they come up with next,HGFA $336 per year including magazine GFA $480 per year including magazine and club membership, Can you please show me anything about these fees that warrant your post asking me what I think they should be Nick???????? an across the board fee structure that includes aircraft rego and magazine and pilots certificate and takes into account of all the other associated costs ie biannuals rego transfers, rego number allocations etc etc etc would be a more realistic figure would it not Nick??

I asked because you have mentioned in a number of posts that you think RA-Aus fees are inflated to cover CTA access etc. and was wondering what you would consider a reasonable price to pay.

 

I didn't mean to start a price comparison war, but I have a few issues with your response. First, if you do subscribe to the RA-Aus magazine you get 12 issues per year verses 6 with GFA and HGFA (personally, I'm happy not paying for the mag. I flick through it online every month but it is bit to propagandary for me at the moment. I think it needs more aircraft flight reports, fly-in reports safety and educational articles and more member interaction such as encouraging members to submit more photos and including some quizzes - in a similar vein as Flight Safety Mag, etc. but that is all for another thread). Secondly, there are rego fees for GFA also, although they are just one offs. Thirdly, HGFA fees vary between $336 (as you mention above) and $389 plus rego fees, although they are significantly lower in RA-Aus. So I think all of the organisations are fairly comparable.

 

Sorry for the thread hijack, Don. I have no fundamental issues with the constitution and it seems fairly comparable to the other organisations that I'm a member of.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

I sent my recommendations to RAAus before the vote and got nowhere. I don't intend wasting my time for an organisation tht will not listen. I will possibly go to ELAAA or re register GA.

Yenn, they cannot ignore a Special Resolution. This is the device that allows members to exercise their absolute power over the entire organisation.

Please don't give up because, from your perspective, a few human beings effed up.

 

Post your recommendations here and I will give them full consideration.

 

Not saying I'll agree necessarily but I will look very closely at them and into them.

 

Don

 

 

[Nick Sieczkowski]

Yenn, they cannot ignore a Special Resolution.

As long as they are submitted on time (tic).................... Too soon?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Thanks Don, we also need to have a bit of philosophy before we craft a rule to suit. ie.1. Notice of meeting and call for proposals and supporting narrative 56 days out

2. Close of proposals and supporting narrative 28 days out

 

3. Issue of formal agenda including proposals to receive reports individually, and proposals received at least 28 days out and the supporting narrative and proxy forms (21 days out)

 

4. Receive from members comments on prposals (14 days out)

 

5. Circulate comments (10 days out).

 

We also need to determine what resolutions can be put to the meeting without notice eg procedural motions and receipt of reports and thank yous or condemnation of the board

 

I will have to think up some Electoral rules but we need to work out if we want preferential where each candidate needs the support of the majority to get elected or proportional representation where each candidate gets elected in proportion to their support.

 

The difficulty with the last process was that it went away to cut rules without floating philosophy to the members first.

Keith,

Why would you 'caution' Col on this post?

 

Excellent post Col, if we understand the philosophy and the intent it makes it is easier to put constructive language around the intended amendment and therefore get member support for the special resolution.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Keith,Why would you 'caution' Col on this post?

Excellent post Col, if we understand the philosophy and the intent it makes it is easier to put constructive language around the intended amendment and therefore get member support for the special resolution.

As I said in a previous post I am not contributing any more to these posts. It was a case of reading to reply not a case of reading to understand. I have enough to keep my self busy other than waste my time here. Trying to explain points.

KP.

 

 

[Yenn]

Don As I said before I don't intend wasting my time. RAAus can do the right thing and fix up the constitution and how it reacts with members, or ignore it as they see fit. I will judge them on how they deal with members. At the moment it appears that there is an alternative and I am not averse to jumping ship, especially as I have faith in the alternatives leaders to look after us.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

Well, I guess we can wrap this thread up and I can go back to my detailed review.

 

Thanks Col for your helpful suggestion - I will keep it in mind as I complete my review.

 

Considering all the discontent about the current constitution, not one single suggestion for a specific amendment!

 

Just 20 posts in total and most of those off topic.

 

It certainly says to me that the discontent has no substance and any disparaging comments from here on have no credibility.

 

Don

 

 

[turboplanner]

No, just that nobody wants to be led up the garden path again.

 

 

[01rmb]

Don - If you really wanted to know what people thought, go back to the other threads about the problems with the constitution. Given all the feedback provided before the constitution was put to the vote and the vitriol from some it is no wonder people have given up. Why bother when all the feedback gets ignored. We just have to live with the discontent and consequences.

 

 

[bull]

Well, I guess we can wrap this thread up and I can go back to my detailed review.Thanks Col for your helpful suggestion - I will keep it in mind as I complete my review.

 

Considering all the discontent about the current constitution, not one single suggestion for a specific amendment!

 

Just 20 posts in total and most of those off topic.

 

It certainly says to me that the discontent has no substance and any disparaging comments from here on have no credibility.

 

Don

Bull mrramsay ,you have been asked about the four stage inspections in the tech manual and you very slyly have dogded the subject.

 

 

[Admin]

Post your recommendations here and I will give them full consideration.Not saying I'll agree necessarily but I will look very closely at them and into them

There are 2 reasons why I am not contributing...

1. Don, you don't represent anyone other than yourself and why should any suggestion get your approval first...this is not representing the members, only representing yourself and your beliefs. If we look at your history, you supported the prevention of the younger generation learning to fly which thank God was later overturned, You oversaw the greatest reduction in members funds that RAAus members have ever seen. You pushed through a major change to RAAus which was incorrect in the first place and now you want to try and fix it...and I can go on and on and on...including your comments that you have made as a board member derogatory against another member that you were servicing as a board member across the internet. As you stated "you will give them full consideration"...I and everyone else don't need YOUR full consideration, your consideration is irrelevant sorry to say, it is the member's consideration that is important.

 

2. I am a paid up ELAAA subscriber now and personally believe they are the way to go. However on a non personal note, Recreational Flying and ELAAA have commenced "early" talks in creating a Memorandum of Understanding between the two to see if we can help each other to help every recreational aviator and recreational aviation community as a whole.