The over-eager neophyte crashes and burns.

[M61A1]

The discretion is for leniency; If they arrest or charge you it's only going to go as far as the law allows.

Usually the law has a certain intent, but left to the interpretation of your average QLD cop, he will twist it in any way he likes.  A trip or several to court and several thousands of dollars may sort it out eventually, either way they win. QLD laws designed to prevent stunting were a good example. They used anti-stunting laws to book riders who stretched their legs while riding until an off duty motorcycle cop got pinged and went public.

 

They don't do that; they are required to make a decision within a framework which is best for the children. Family Court is probably one of the most traumatic experiences a person can have, but it takes its toll on the Magistrates too.

The point was missed... Magistrates seem to be so far removed from reality that they cant get their head around the very idea that someone might not comply with their orders,even if there is a history. Nothing to do with making order in accordance with the law. They believe if the order it it will happen....

 

You could, but the minute you did that you wold become liable for the inevitable accidents. Couldn't see anyone wanting to lose their house for that.

That's the downfall of our lawyer run system. Leaving them on the streets so they die and kill others make mores sense to them.

 

Motor Racing is fine

Only for those with plenty of money. They regulated all the less wealthy ones out, because the couldn't afford to comply,

 

 now they race on the street and make their own rules.

 

tell them you're going to book them for failure to control a motor vehicle, and they can see how it is to get their car crushed.

I have no idea why you think that would end well. We're dealing with power hungry hypocrites, with a badge and a magistrate that hangs on their every word.

 

Well, aside from making 75kt Drifters fly a 500' circuit, what's become harder in the last 12 months?

Maintenance, modification, documentation....(for amateur built and 95:10_ and training.

 

 

[M61A1]

I take it that your motorcycle would make you a target

Just wondering Turbo....what sort of bikes do you think I have?  I can tell you now that I wouldn't be seen dead on one of those loud obnoxious Harley or metric cruiser things. I like to be fairly invisible. Every time I've seen the smoking U-turn is because I've been following  the cop car that has done it to get some other poor bugger. Never have I seen them do it to pull up some geriatric doing 65 in  hundred zone hunched over the wheel, while bouncing between the white lines, and I  see lots of those.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

About 12 months ago I helped an old mate out and did a stint of 3 months driving a full length semi in Sydney. It wasn't the "hoones" that pissed me off , it was the lane hogs, the mums (with kids) cutting me off coming up to the lights,  the sudden lane changes sometimes with a single flash of indicator after the fact ,the luxury sports cars failing to give way to my turning signal/manoeuvre (usually resulting in a stand off with me straddling two lanes and them somewhere between trailer & tractor bogies - the funny bit was the the soundless pantomime I could see in my mirror - lots of mouth opening and colourful sign language, while I just had a good laughed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The point was missed... Magistrates seem to be so far removed from reality that they cant get their head around the very idea that someone might not comply with their orders,even if there is a history. Nothing to do with making order in accordance with the law. They believe if the order it it will happen....

I didn't miss your point; I may not have had the best answer, but they hear so many lies, that there's no way they would think that every order would be complied with. The family court is designed to go easy on people in trauma, but I think there's a step by step compliance system attached.

 

That's the downfall of our lawyer run system. Leaving them on the streets so they die and kill others make mores sense to them.

The system has nothing to do with that. You know that when someone takes over an activity they assume public liability for that activity. Why would anyone volunteer?

 

Only for those with plenty of money. They regulated all the less wealthy ones out, because the couldn't afford to comply,

I already old you it's possible to race on less that the cost of smoking, so that's BS

 

Maintenance, modification, documentation....(for amateur built and 95:10_ and training.

Yet when the subject of supporting rag and tube, I never see your name coming up, and standing up for the real purpose of RAA.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just wondering Turbo....what sort of bikes do you think I have?  I can tell you now that I wouldn't be seen dead on one of those loud obnoxious Harley or metric cruiser things. I like to be fairly invisible. Every time I've seen the smoking U-turn is because I've been following  the cop car that has done it to get some other poor bugger. Never have I seen them do it to pull up some geriatric doing 65 in  hundred zone hunched over the wheel, while bouncing between the white lines, and I  see lots of those.

A BSA Bantam would do it.

 

When I was doing the drag racing with the police the senior officers in our preliminary meeting couldn't quite grasp the what happened with this night drag racing so they offered me a ride in a Highway Patrol car. The car was an unmarked Commodore, the Sergeant driving made it clear I was the last thing he wanted to see in the car behind wrapping paper, and after a severe warning that if an emergency occurred I would be dumped on the side of the road, we proceeded to turn the lights on a few hapless motorists. After about an hour the Sergeant said "See, there's no drag racing going on" which I let pass. A few minutes later a poor little bike rider swooped off a slip lane and onto the Monash Freeway (100 km/hr), nose down on the tank and doing about 130. "There's one!" (drag racer) shouted the sergeant, and put his foot flat almost running over the motor bike who was doing a steady 95 km/hr and now sitting upright.  "We're in an unmarked car; how the hell did he know it was us?" he asked.

 

I said "You're driving a grey Commodore with a country pack suspension and slotted wheels, and he saw you put you're foot down" and went on to tell him the drag racers only operated on Saturday and Sunday nights and he could find them by turning his CB on. Not a happy night.

 

 

[turboplanner]

About 12 months ago I helped an old mate out and did a stint of 3 months driving a full length semi in Sydney. It wasn't the "hoones" that pissed me off , it was the lane hogs, the mums (with kids) cutting me off coming up to the lights,  the sudden lane changes sometimes with a single flash of indicator after the fact ,the luxury sports cars failing to give way to my turning signal/manoeuvre (usually resulting in a stand off with me straddling two lanes and them somewhere between trailer & tractor bogies - the funny bit was the the soundless pantomime I could see in my mirror - lots of mouth opening and colourful sign language, while I just had a good laughed.

You've summed up the primary complaint of every semi and HC driver in the country. The ATA does education around Australia, the governments run ad campaigns, and there are signs on the rear of every trailer in the country, but a gap is a gap to a city motorist. This very rarely ever results in a fatality, but the potential is there.

 

 

[M61A1]

You know that when someone takes over an activity they assume public liability for that activity. Why would anyone volunteer?

That is exactly the reason the system is flawed. Enforcing the hoons that use the facility to also accept the responsibility, We could apply that principle to a lot of things in society. I know it's not how it works right now, but it could if we could get over the liability issues. Not going to happen in my lifetime.

 

I already old you it's possible to race on less that the cost of smoking, so that's BS

I have family that race in busted arxe ford series stuff and the amount of money needed to do it makes flying look like a poor mans hobby.

 

Yet when the subject of supporting rag and tube, I never see your name coming up, and standing up for the real purpose of RAA.

What you see me standing for is less regulation and less complication. I see no reason a Cessna can't be operated under the same order as a Drifter, both factory built, both simple, both easy to fly. Most homebuilts have more complex avionics than a lot of GA aircraft.  Someone drew an arbitrary line in the sand and people think it can't be changed. Recreational flying to me could be all flying that's private, it doesn't have to be made more difficult, instead of making rag and tube as difficult as bigger aircraft, make the bigger aircraft  easier. There's no need for more rules just because the aircraft is bigger. A system similar to road vehicles would be fine. Private motorists can do their own maintenance, and within fairly lax guidelines are free to do and go where they please, heavy vehicles and those operated for business have different standards, reasonably so.

 

As I said once before, there's no difference between going for a drive in the family commodore with the wife and kids to going for a fly in a Cessna with the wife and kids, but we have a bunch of diehard shellbacks that think it CAN'T be done. I'm all for grass roots. Let the private Cessna/Piper driver in with  the grass roots, don't take the rag & tube up to GA. The REAL purpose of RAA is to fly affordably, however you like, not to regulate it to RPT/GA standards.

 

 

[spacesailor]

 "Also, crims were happy to sully a constable's name by claiming they slung a quid to have a traffic ticket dropped."

 

cops checking evidence.

 

: 

 

 

spacesailor

 

 

[old man emu]

What happens in Victoria now is the cop comes up, and may say something like "I'm going to give you a warning now, but if we see you doing it again, we'll be issuing a fine"

So he has not made an allegation, there's no question about corruption etc., and many people go away and never make the same mistake again.

That is how discretion works, and it mostly has positive results with sensible people. 

 

What did they do in Victoria - sack all the Internal Affairs police ?

 

I suppose that with speed cameras hiding everywhere and red light cameras at every intersection, there is no need for uniformed police to spend time dealing with traffic matters so they can now spend their days keeping the peace.

 

 

[old man emu]

9 hours ago, spacesailor said:

 

 "Also, crims were happy to sully a constable's name by claiming they slung a quid to have a traffic ticket dropped."

 

cops checking evidence.

 

: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Checking evidence - That's not an Australian policeman.

 

Seatbelts - American video, most probably.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That is exactly the reason the system is flawed. Enforcing the hoons that use the facility to also accept the responsibility, We could apply that principle to a lot of things in society. I know it's not how it works right now, but it could if we could get over the liability issues. Not going to happen in my lifetime.

Of course it's not going to happen; Donoghue v Stevenson is the precedent case for Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom, Canada, and US Tort law is based on the British system. However, if those Hoons were to do something as simple as insuring themselves, and coming up with safe benchmarks for what they want to do, there's nothing to stop them buying or leasing a facility like anyone else. When you've got the capacity to fit a big block imported engine and a supercharger, and the speaker system in the car is worth $6000.00, you're not at the bottom of the poverty chain.

 

I have family that race in busted arxe ford series stuff and the amount of money needed to do it makes flying look like a poor mans hobby.

If that's in the CAMS system, CAMS runs about 15% of Australian motor racing; you can race for cigarette cost.

 

 What you see me standing for is less regulation and less complication.

If that's what you're standing for you've kept very quiet about the detail. If you start by splitting them into two sections (a) Rules required to safely design, build, operate and service self administered aircraft, and (b) Rules required to taxy and fly in CASA controlled airspace, that at least gives some direction. Then if you look at what new rules RAA have introduced in the last 10 years, and what new CASA Rules that apply outside CTA have been introduced in the last 10 years, you'd be able to tell us how many new ones have come in, and which ones could be deleted (remembering your "not in my lifetime" statement).

 

I see no reason a Cessna can't be operated under the same order as a Drifter, both factory built, both simple, both easy to fly.

The fact is that Cessnas are operated within the formal aviation industry, prescriptively controlled by CASA, and recreational aircraft are operated on a very tenuous basket of exceptions to the CASA rules. That division is what allows you to fly a Drifter. If the government came along and said to you: "M, we've decided to scrap all our current aviation regulations and start again and we'd like you to list a new set of rules" that might be worth thinking about, but what's wrong with choosing what you want to fly and just going out and doing it?

 

Most homebuilts have more complex avionics than a lot of GA aircraft. 

If you're talking about the Chinese EFIS, you're dreaming. And what for?

 

As I said once before, there's no difference between going for a drive in the family commodore with the wife and kids to going for a fly in a Cessna with the wife and kids, but we have a bunch of diehard shellbacks that think it CAN'T be done.

The people who thought it could be done killed thousands of families, and paid the price by almost losing their businesses. Kingsford Smith & Co looked at all sorts of ways that flying for fun could be made commercial, and started with mail runs, then carrying passengers and doing joyflights around the country, the rich bought their own small aircraft and had themselves trained to fly and then the small aircraft manufacturers decided to expand their markets to suit the new network of airfields, and then they started on the "Cessna/Piper/Beechcraft, your new car" stunt where people were bilked into swallowing your statement, and the recreational sector of the aviation industry killed so many people due to the over-simplification that it killed itself. We are coming back from that low point with better safety systems and better training, but flight planning, navigation, P&O, meteorology, and basic aircraft handling (achieving a safe forced landing) etc, are still beyond some people who fly.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

That is how discretion works, and it mostly has positive results with sensible people. 

What did they do in Victoria - sack all the Internal Affairs police ?

 

No, they are still there watching every move; a LOT of cops are retiring early, suiciding, PTSD etc. and a lot of things will have to change.

 

 

I suppose that with speed cameras hiding everywhere and red light cameras at every intersection, there is no need for uniformed police to spend time dealing with traffic matters so they can now spend their days keeping the peace.

Australia's immigration policy has probably taken care of any spare time doing that, with some nationalities cutting the throats of their spouses after the use by date, others fighting the wars of their old countries, organised drug distribution on a massive scale, organised home invasion/aggravated burglaries. I believe you can probably draw a diving line now with traditional crime on one side, and non-anglo saxon activity on the other, where, for example, people are hiring groups of kids from 12 to 18 to go out and steal cars to order, usually Audis or Benzes, steal mobile phones, credit cards and cash from bystanders after diversions, help the kids use the juvenile court system to get back out asap, and keep the injuries limited to broken arms, and lacerations to there are no murders which might point towards the organisers with more detailed investigation. All in all, I think that is taking up the time they used to spend on traffic. Digital should help with lowering the work level, and giving black and white evidence.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Australia's immigration policy has probably taken care of any spare time doing that, with some nationalities cutting the throats of their spouses after the use by date, others fighting the wars of their old countries, organised drug distribution on a massive scale, organised home invasion/aggravated burglaries. I believe you can probably draw a diving line now with traditional crime on one side, and non-anglo saxon activity on the other, where, for example, people are hiring groups of kids from 12 to 18 to go out and steal cars to order, usually Audis or Benzes, steal mobile phones, credit cards and cash from bystanders after diversions, help the kids use the juvenile court system to get back out asap, and keep the injuries limited to broken arms, and lacerations to there are no murders which might point towards the organisers with more detailed investigation. All in all, I think that is taking up the time they used to spend on traffic. Digital should help with lowering the work level, and giving black and white evidence.

Maaaate! - non of the criminal activities you mention came down in the last shower of rain/or immigration.

 

Drug distribution has been around from whenever man found out he could get a high from chewing certain leaves - our Government just made it  way more profitable (& attractive to the young) by making it illegal.

 

I lived in Moree, a zilion years ago, there were under age gangs robing homes & bushiness back then and the perpetrators were decedents of the first ever human immigrants into Australia. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Maaaate! - non of the criminal activities you mention came down in the last shower of rain/or immigration.

Drug distribution has been around from whenever man found out he could get a high from chewing certain leaves - our Government just made it  way more profitable (& attractive to the young) by making it illegal.

 

I lived in Moree, a zilion years ago, there were under age gangs robing homes & bushiness back then and the perpetrators were decedents of the first ever human immigrants into Australia. 

Yes; that’s the base load I mentioned and they work in and around Anglo Saxon values.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

With all the answers you will no doubt be standing for the next federal election between now and May? A man of your general knowledge and people skills (A trait a certain big eared budgie smuggler wearing politician said he had) would be a shoe in and after elected you could put the country back on a steady coarse and save us all?

 

 

[turboplanner]

*course

 

 

[Student Pilot]

*course

Of coarse it is, yoo need to make correkshuns with spelink n grammer as well, for the superior glow yoo get being a pedant 

 

 

[M61A1]

but flight planning, navigation, P&O, meteorology, and basic aircraft handling (achieving a safe forced landing) etc, are still beyond some people who fly.

As it is also with road motoring.

 

All it comes down to Turbo, is that in your opinion the current system is OK and we could improve it my adding more regs, and in my opinion, we are an over regulated bunch of sheep, run by people like yourself.

 

Ever wonder why suicide rates are high. People have no control over almost anything they do any more, and the control they do have is only the stuff they allow you to control. So people take control in the only way they can.

 

Australia's immigration policy has probably taken care of any spare time doing that, with some nationalities

I was under the impression from the  media that the cops were busy denying there's actually criminal activity in Victoria.

 

 

[turboplanner]

As it is also with road motoring.

All it comes down to Turbo, is that in your opinion the current system is OK and we could improve it my adding more regs, and in my opinion, we are an over regulated bunch of sheep, run by people like yourself.

The current road system produces a very small percentage of fatalities; I'm more than happy with less prescriptive and proscriptive regulations; you've made it very clear over and over again that you don't want regulations, but you're not in synch with the rest of the 16.5 million people. 

 

 

[spacesailor]

" If the government came along and said to you: "M, we've decided to scrap all our current aviation regulations and start again and we'd like you to list a new set of rules" that might be worth thinking about, but what's wrong with choosing what you want to fly and just going out and doing it?".

 

SCRAP the "wing loading rule",

 

  I chose a Good Solid, Safe, Economical, AND good looking aircraft.

 

At The Time of choosing ( If I had built it quicker,) It Was registable, As was the other aircraft from the same designer, flying !.

 

WHY do the Bureaucrats think "Low wing loading" is SAFE.  Striping all Safety gear And the heavy main-spar out said aircraft, to comply with a rule that is "grandfathered" to "flying-registered" aircraft, does NOT in anybodey's opinion, Makes that compliance, SAFE !.

 

Which of the two aircraft fit the SAFE aircraft RULE.

 

spacesailor

 

 

 

 

[M61A1]

but you're not in synch with the rest of the 16.5 million people. 

Our regulators might be surprised just how many people are not "in synch" with them.

 

Or could be put that as: You might be surprised just how out of synch our regulators are with the people.

 

We're in different worlds on the same planet.

 

 

[spacesailor]

I have Known a lot of reasonable competent driver's who have Not insured their vehicle,because they know the insurance will be "Null & Void" if they get caught for any misdemeanor.

 

( at later date No registration, then No licence )

 

And still on the road. because they Can't comply with the law's, (Not plural but multiple).

 

Mr, & Mrs x died young leaving children with no hope of conforming to law's were you have to be literate.

 

AND now their children also.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have Known a lot of reasonable competent driver's who have Not insured their vehicle,because they know the insurance will be "Null & Void" if they get caught for any misdemeanor.

( at later date No registration, then No licence )

 

And still on the road. because they Can't comply with the law's, (Not plural but multiple).

 

Mr, & Mrs x died young leaving children with no hope of conforming to law's were you have to be literate.

 

AND now their children also.

 

spacesailor

Space; a lot of people don't insure because they drive a $1000.00 car and figure they'll just buy another one if they have an accident etc.

 

What they don't realise is that if they hit and write off a $150,000 Mercedes Benz, and the accident was their fault, they will have to pay the $150,000.00 out of their pocket.

 

What they can do, is take out an insurance policy for other vehicles only. That is, their own $1,000.00 car is uninsured for loss or damage, but they can claim insurance for the car they hit.

 

The terms and conditions on the insurance form will show any "Null & Void" conditions, but they are rare.

 

RE: Mr & Mrs died young leaving children with no hope of conforming where they have to be literate, they can go to an INSURANCE BROKER in the local town, tell him what they want, and ask questions, so they don't need to be literate, and they can have peace of mind.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Turbs

 

You forget !, If guilty of DUI, that insurance is Not worth the paper it's written on.

 

The old man, Vietnam war vet only drank, "A carton of beer" Daily. The same for the wife, He died of emphysema, she followed him three or four months later, two eldest sons suicide'd before that date, a third son is the Hoon, plus a "normal daughter. AND LOTS of Little ankle-biter's.

 

Nice couple to know, kept a nice garden, New tenants have their old  place like a tip.

 

Never seemed over the limit, But I don't think he could pass a breathalyzer.

 

Zero interest in anything, including children.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

This discussion should long ago have migrated to the WUA site.

 

My two bob's worth: if people feel they have nothing, they'll have nothing to lose. They won't bother about insurance, rego, and keeping their car in good nick.

 

A doco once explored why North America is rich and Latin America isn't. The main finding was that in the south, the Spanish conquerors imported the old system: most people were tenant farmers or worked on large estancias. Any extra effort they put into their land was taken as rent. They didn't even own their own homes, so there was little incentive for people to improve their lot in life.

 

In North America, small privately-owned homes and farms were the norm, breeding a society of property-owners who had something to work for.

 

But for the rebellious Irish element among the convicts, Australia might easily have followed the example of Latin America: John MacArthur and the Rum Corps tried to set up a landed aristocracy, supported by ex-convict serfs.