The over-eager neophyte crashes and burns.

[M61A1]

The crash near Jondaryan had quite a few factors, not the least of which is someone taking a lot of space they don't need suddenly, an overtaking lane which ended only just prior to the intersection and a really crappy bled out spray seal section of road that was wet.

 

The truck driver had begun braking well ahead of time and was well under deceleration when other cars took this a a cue to to overtake right at the last moment. These cars had nowhere to go when the driver up front hit the anchors, indicates right and swings left.

 

The coroner pretty much put all the blame on the trucking company base on one mechanic's visual assessment of the truck's brakes, no physical test were done. The passenger of the 4WD in which the driver was killed testified that she heard the driver (her husband) if we go over there , we'll roll. Then he drove into the side of a semi.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Re., the NSW law on entering & exiting driveway's 

 

Can someone look up the law,  as-to "Revering into a road from your driveway !.

 

"The optimum car park is 45 degrees nose in; I've never understood the logic of stopping the traffic to reverse in."  

 

SO you stop the traffic reversing OUT, into oncoming traffic !.

 

I was under the impression that the Law said reverse in, OR have a  person direct the traffic behind you.

 

(with a RED FLAG & BELL)

 

spacesailor

 

 

[skippydiesel]

(Lords Name  !!) I couldn't bring myself to read through all of the previous threads so apologise if someone has already picked up on the following;

 

Almost all of you focus on speed - WRONG!!

 

So are debates about road conditions, trip times, drains, trees, safer cars, etc etc this is all just a diversion from reality.

 

The problem is always has been and continues to be (until driver less vehicles) the moron behind the wheel - nothing else.

 

Lack of road/driver courtesy is the main problem, followed closely by general driving skill.

 

Road design & conditions has never killed or injured anyone.

 

No vehicle has killed anyone - a person, usually the driver, sometimes the pedestrian, very very occasionally the mechanic/engineer/designer (all people) are at fault.

 

Examples:

 

• At great cost the the taxpayer, we have 5 + lane freeways - where 98% of the idiots use the OUTSIDE 4 lanes going slower than the 2% who use the inside lane (% are illustration only).
   
   
  
• Our heavy vehicles are allowed to use all lanes & often do, creating moving barriers (UK HGV's MUST keep to the left and can not use the outside lane on a 3+ lane hwy).
   
   
  
• In NSW,  keeping left ,only applies on roads with an 80+ speed limit (& isn't policed anyhow) - go figure.
   
   
  
• Forward parking is the norm (sometimes mandated by councils) despite all the evidence showing that reverse parking is infinitely safer. 
   
   
  
• Roundabouts/traffic circles - 35 years or so after their introduction not only do drivers still not know how to use them, councils dont know how to design them.
   
   
  

 

 

We have confusing/inconsistent road rules, speed & condition advisory signs, arbitrary speed limits (I totally reject the idea that there is a strict formula applied to speed zones), very very poor driver skills AND almost complete indifference by the authorities to anything other than speed & RBT (which I agree with).

 

In NSW we penalise the elderly driver ,WRONG again. This is discrimination of the worst kind - we should ALL be subject to 5 year driving tests - cant reverse park FAIL!, driver under the speed limit (road conditions allowing) FAIL! incorrect use of indicators FAIL! incorrect use of traffic circle FAIL! not keeping left FAIL!  swan neck turns (long vehicles excepted) FAIL, speed up when being passed FAIL , failure to facilitate merging FAIL, etc etc etc  - whats age got to do with it  ???

 

Yep I dont live in the real world. Its dog eat dog out there on the hwy. Just pause for a moment and visualise a road system where most people actually kept to the left when not passing, used their indicators (correctly would be good too) at traffic circles and drove to conditions, facilitated merging - trip times would be very much quicker and safer ,saving the whole country billions per year.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"Road design & conditions has never killed or injured anyone"

 

The motor ways in UK had to be realigned, due solely to drivers NOT noticing they were "turning" on a bend.  (road too straight).

 

Then they said it was "Speed" Take ten off the speed limit. But still had the bends fixed.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[turboplanner]

When I see a crash involving a truck that failed to stop in time, I see a truck driver who drives his truck like a car, leaving no margin for error, inadequate braking distance, and a lack of "defensive driver", driving tactics - which allows for other drivers making serious errors of judgement, being inattentive, being distracted, or being under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Here are the 2018 stopping distances: 

 

Vehicle

 

Consistent Result (Metres)

 

Car

 

45-46

 

Rigid Truck, hydraulic brakes

 

65

 

Semi-Trailers with air brakes

 

75

 

B Doubles with air brakes

 

85

 

A percentage do what you said, but the vast majority allow a safe margin and their biggest gripe is that car drivers take advantage of the gap and dive into their lane. Mostly they don't hit. I was coming up to a set of lights one day in an Atkinson 6x4 bobtail and was almost at the lights when a mini darted in front of me and stopped. I threw on everything. The Atkinson is a cab over but the whole mini, in slow motion, slid out of sight under the windscreen. I'm not sure how we didn't touch, but he just drove off after the lights turned green.

 

Base on the chart above, you can see there is a distance where a car which brakes hard, has no chance.

 

I might add, I have driven trucks for over 50 years, have owned a Drake  4 rows of 8, 100 tonne spread low-loader, with 2 rows of 8 dolly, and hauled earthmovers weighing 100 tonnes and loads up to 7 metres wide.

I can understand that on country roads and in country towns, but in the cities the traffic flow has some overlap. You could still drive very slowly, and most of it would move forward around you, but that would involve you in more close shaves. I am at red alert driving a semi in city traffic, and nowhere near as smooth as the truckies who are in the flow groove.

 

The biggest danger when you're hauling oversize, is motorists who can't even pass a wide load without rolling over (and yes, had one who rolled their car and caravan straight into the RH front wheel of the Mack, while trying to overtake at 80kmh!).

There are MANY motorists who think a big truck is going to swerve into them. I've convinced hundreds to just sit back and watch the semis tyres vs the wide line for a while, then relax knowing he's not going to be making any sudden moves.

 

The problem with a large percentage of truck drivers is the inability to back off the loud pedal until it's too late. They are focussed on "pedal-to-the-metal" because they have to be at "Point B" at a certain (tight schedule) time, after leaving "Point A".

 

Not a lot different to the "get-home-itis" problem, that is behind the poor decision-making, involved in numerous light aircraft crashes.

The latest figures indicate that in over 80% of multi-vehicle fatalities with trucks, the ruck driver was not responsible.

 

Even the tipper drivers who are paid on volume and speed all the time, and aren't paid enough to properly maintain their vehicles are not a visible fatality group.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Onetrack, a couple of little issues you would appreciate: the PBS six axle dog trailers are pushing the prime movers straight ahead on corners when the tandem rear of the truck tries to pull the triaxle around; the reason we dumped adjustable widespreads, and Double Road trains are running in metro Melbourne, claimed to be speed limited to 90, but I've followed one at 100. The convertible dolly does what all dollies do and gets up a sway which takes it over the white lane lines. What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

[onetrack]

The problem with dollies is caused by drawbars that are too short - which is caused by arbitrary length limits, set without regard to truck and trailer design.

 

Manufacturers shorten drawbars to get within strict length limits, so you then have increased sway and wander potential. In W.A., in the 1970's, we went away from short drawbars for dollies, now they're making a comeback.

 

I never had a problem with the big Drake dolly, because of the length of the drawbar, which is also a weight-bearing member. I have seen some stupid things done with truck design to get within length limits.

 

I agree that the largest percentage of truck drivers are courteous and professional in operation. But there's also a fair percentage of truck drivers whose truck-driving skills are seriously deficient.

 

These are the blokes you see tailgating on freeways, hogging the RH lane, and generally using the "might is right" driving rule. A lot of the bigger 4WD owners are of a similar mentality.

 

But the problem of idiot car drivers with little understanding of the need for additional stopping distance for trucks is something that remains with us.

 

Constant education is the key, and I believe regular driver testing might assist in weeding out the bad drivers.

 

A very big problem is the "developing bad habit" problem. Failure to stop completely at stop signs, failure to look properly at intersections and T-junctions. Failure to give adequate indication of turns or lane changes.

 

All of these habits start off slowly and then develop into a pattern of continued "slackness" in carrying out the actions properly and fully.

 

One has to develop a substantial degree of self-discipline to both recognise when bad driving habits are developing, and to correct those bad habits from degenerating further until one causes an accident.

 

Spacesailor - In every State and in every jurisdiction in Australia - and around the world - the onus is 100% on the driver reversing, to "exercise due care". Too many drivers seem to think they they have some kind of right-of-way when reversing.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

"Road design & conditions has never killed or injured anyone"

The motor ways in UK had to be realigned, due solely to drivers NOT noticing they were "turning" on a bend.  (road too straight).

 

Then they said it was "Speed" Take ten off the speed limit. But still had the bends fixed.

 

spacesailor

DRIVERS !

 

 

[turboplanner]

The problem with dollies is caused by drawbars that are too short - which is caused by arbitrary length limits, set without regard to truck and trailer design.

Manufacturers shorten drawbars to get within strict length limits, so you then have increased sway and wander potential. In W.A., in the 1970's, we went away from short drawbars for dollies, now they're making a comeback.

I liked the WA regulations best of all because you could fit a bonneted 6x4 Prime Mover with a decent sized sleeper into a B Double.

 

 I have seen some stupid things done with truck design to get within length limits.

How about this one. There's a PBS trailer running around with a steerable axle in the middle ("middle" being halfway between the king pin and centre of Tri.

 

I very big problem is the "developing bad habit" problem. Failure to stop completely at stop signs, failure to look properly at intersections and T-junctions. Failure to give adequate indication of turns or lane changes.

 

All of these habits start off slowly and then develop into a pattern of continued "slackness" in carrying out the actions properly and fully.

I suspect a lot of this relates to the shift from on-road policing to camera fines and office-bound police loaded up with more and more paperwork.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

 Something different has crept in with trucks in the cities particularly Sydney. They will pull out of a lane on your left when you are only about 15 ft from their door. You are IN another lane, have been there for some time and they don't really have room to pull out unless you hit the Brakes pretty fast and get behind them as they are definitely going to be in your lane whether you  are there and like it or not. . Might is right I guess. I don't even get mad about it anymore.  There's about one truck for each 3 to 5  cars near Hornsby coming South at times. People in cars don't give trucks enough room, they will cut in  at times and the poor truckie just has to go for the stoppers and there's no way it will stop if it had to. . . Best truck drivers I've encountered are on the Nullarbor. Worst in western Queensland (and on the Newell). Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

SO you stop the traffic reversing OUT, into oncoming traffic !.

No, you have to wait for a break in the through traffic, so you're not holding it up.

 

 

[spacesailor]

"Road design & conditions has never killed or injured anyone"

 

The motor ways in UK had to be realigned, due solely to drivers NOT noticing they were "turning" on a bend.  (road too straight).

 

Then they said it was "Speed" Take ten off the speed limit. But still had the bends fixed.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[nomadpete]

OK

 

We've done this drift to death.

 

We all have horror road stories.

 

We all have strong ideas on how to fix the problem.

 

The answer is.........

 

        Human factors training.

 

        Advanced defensive driver training.

 

      And remove the automatic RIGHT to drive.

 

End of story

 

 

[spacesailor]

And you couldent have pulled over until the road was clear, to reverse in !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[skippydiesel]

"Road design & conditions has never killed or injured anyone"

The motor ways in UK had to be realigned, due solely to drivers NOT noticing they were "turning" on a bend.  (road too straight).

 

Then they said it was "Speed" Take ten off the speed limit. But still had the bends fixed.

 

spacesailor

Real drivers actually drive to the conditions - Zombies operate in autopilot beyond caring about road conditions or other road users. The road did not cause the accidents the lack of driver skill did.

 

No matter how good/bad the road is or the prevailing traffic/weather conditions, the only brain is between the ears of the driver. He/she makes the decisions,  no one else. Not the vehicle, not the road, tree, alcohol, kids in the back, fatigue .......... whatever ITS THE DRIVER!!!  - TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! quit looking for a scape goat.

 

Does everything in our world have to revolve aground the lowest common denominator ? - cant we aspire to something a little better  than trying to design a cotton wool world where irresponsible people can live safe little lives ???

 

 

[turboplanner]

Real drivers actually drive to the conditions - Zombies operate in autopilot beyond caring about road conditions or other road users. The road did not cause the accidents the lack of driver skill did.

No matter how good/bad the road is or the prevailing traffic/weather conditions, the only brain is between the ears of the driver. He/she makes the decisions,  no one else. Not the vehicle, not the road, tree, alcohol, kids in the back, fatigue .......... whatever ITS THE DRIVER!!!  - TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! quit looking for a scape goat.

 

Does everything in our world have to revolve aground the lowest common denominator ? - cant we aspire to something a little better  than trying to design a cotton wool world where irresponsible people can live safe little lives ???

There were 16.5 million Australians with driver licences in 2016, and 19.2 registered motor vehicles in Australia as at January 2018.

 

They produce some of the lowest fatality and serious injury rates we've seen in the last 40 years.

 

How would you find and retrain the ones who are going to be killed in the next 12 months?

 

 

[skippydiesel]

There were 16.5 million Australians with driver licences in 2016, and 19.2 registered motor vehicles in Australia as at January 2018.

They produce some of the lowest fatality and serious injury rates we've seen in the last 40 years.

 

How would you find and retrain the ones who are going to be killed in the next 12 months?

In the real world it s not just about deaths/injury its is also about the unnecessary time lost to roads clogged by poor drivers (40 minute commutes turn into 1.5- 2hr ones)- the total (death/injury/damage & time) cost to the economy must be in the billions per year

 

I would introduce: 

 

• Much higher standards for driver training - driving is a privilege not a right.
   
   
  
• Five year testing for ALL drivers
   
   
  
• Complete overhaul of  the road & driving rules, the way speed zones, advisory signs (inc white lines), stop/give, parking directives are implemented (probably remove from local authorities) strive for consistence.
   
   
  
• Maximum duty times for ALL  truck drivers  - 9 hrs behind the wheel, 12 hrs total duty/work time NO EXCEPTIONS
   
   
  
• Policing of driver behaviour (including basic skills like driving to conditions, appropriate use of indicators keeping to the left) not just speed, seat belts/helmets (which should NOT be mandated for adults) and RBT
   
   
  
• Consistent and appropriate penalties for driving safety violations
   
   
  

 

 

We humans are hardwired to take risks, you diminish us by trying to create a cotton wool world of no risk and no responsibility, some death/injury will result . That the price we pay for being what we are. If you want mindless drones, legalise cloning.

 

 

[turboplanner]

A lot of good points in that Skippy; I take it you live in the country, or a small town?

 

The biggest single Victorian drop ever occurred after Victoria legislated for seat belts.

 

 

[M61A1]

How would you find and retrain the ones who are going to be killed in the next 12 months?

If I can walk down the main street and pick out drivers that are high risk (ignorant, incompetent or incapable), surely our police can put the radar/lidar down, get out of the car identify and talk to the same drivers. Educate them, if they refuse to be educated, disqualify them. They are blatantly obvious in the community, and why they won't address the issue concerns me greatly. It makes it apparent to me that our regulators are incredibly thick or perhaps aren't really interested in sorting the problem they claim to be so concerned about.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

A lot of good points in that Skippy; I take it you live in the country, or a small town?

The biggest single Victorian drop ever occurred after Victoria legislated for seat belts.

Thanks  for the "good points.

 

No - I live in the outer fringe of Sydney (which I avoid going into whenever I can).

 

Ref: Seat belt/helmets

 

We should NEVER have laws imposed on us that protect the individual from their own stupidity. Laws should only ever be mandated to protect the individual from the majority or the majority from the individual. 

 

Before they were mandated, I wore set belts & motorcycle helmets but bitterly reject/resent any law forcing me to do the same.

 

I believe in protecting the young from their immaturity & the neglect of adults, so laws for them to wear set belts, be in capsules, wear helmets, make sense (to me).

 

As an adult the decision to take stupid unnecessary risks should be mine alone.

 

There are better ways to encourage people to "do the right thing" than making it against the law.

 

 

[turboplanner]

No - I live in the outer fringe of Sydney (which I avoid going into whenever I can).

OK, you drive in City conditions; in country towns there's a different pace and a lower risk.

 

We should NEVER have laws imposed on us that protect the individual from their own stupidity.

In a few cases the people who have died have done stupid things, but many are totally innocent and driving correctly when hit - examples:

 

A friend of mine was killed when the driver of an oncoming furniture van fell asleep and veered across the road into him.

 

Another friend, a police officer who'd done the defensive/pursuit courses was hit on two occasions while driving through intersections in marked police cars. Both hits occurred behind the eye line, one rolled the car over IN the Melbourne CBD.

 

Laws should only ever be mandated to protect the individual from the majority or the majority from the individual. 

 

Before they were mandated, I wore set belts & motorcycle helmets but bitterly reject/resent any law forcing me to do the same.

That law has saved so many thousands of lives that you'll probably have to live with it.

 

As an adult the decision to take stupid unnecessary risks should be mine alone.

The decision is yours, which is why public liability lawsuits occur, but a percentage of the 16.5 million drivers have a problem managing the basics, the population wants the road toll down or else, so there's still prescription, which the taxpayers pay for.

 

There are better ways to encourage people to "do the right thing" than making it against the law.

Yes, motivation in corporate management works much better than orders, and there is plenty of safety motivation out there, but it's the 16.5 million that ensures as stick is required as well as a carrot.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

If I can walk down the main street and pick out drivers that are high risk (ignorant, incompetent or incapable), surely our police can put the radar/lidar down, get out of the car identify and talk to the same drivers. Educate them, if they refuse to be educated, disqualify them. They are blatantly obvious in the community, and why they won't address the issue concerns me greatly. It makes it apparent to me that our regulators are incredibly thick or perhaps aren't really interested in sorting the problem they claim to be so concerned about.

Best you tell that to the local cop; but stand back a little.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...surely our police can put the radar/lidar down, get out of the car identify and talk to the same drivers. Educate them, if they refuse to be educated, disqualify them. They are blatantly obvious in the community, and why they won't address the issue concerns me greatly...

I'm totally with you on that, M. It's often bleedingly obvious to the wallopers who the dangerous drivers are, but they'd be accused of victimisation or discrimination...

 

- and don't get me started on the misuse of that word. All sensible people practise discrimination: we discriminate between good food and bad, between good TV shows and junk...

 

Discrimination is essential for survival.

 

But discrimination on the basis of factors that shouldn't matter (race, gender, orientation, etc) is quite another thing.

 

 

[M61A1]

Best you tell that to the local cop; but stand back a little.

Ha, I f I were to point that out the the local plod/s I suspect that there would be some discrimination coming my way.

 

I wonder at times if their hands are tied about how they do things or whether they just couldn't be bothered.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Ha, I f I were to point that out the the local plod/s I suspect that there would be some discrimination coming my way.

 

I wonder at times if their hands are tied about how they do things or whether they just couldn't be bothered.

As with many jobs, copper risk a lot if they decide to do the right thing: