126.7

[turboplanner]

Might just point out that I abide by the book, I just believe, in common with a lot of CASA stuff, that it could be better!

Well when you say that and someone believes "that's a great idea" and uses it, you are spreading confusion. People have quoted the regulations here; learn to use a mike.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

And learn to be diplomatic ?

 

 

[derekliston]

And learn to be diplomatic ?

I invariably am, others not so much! If things didn’t change we wouldn’t have to buy a new ERSA every 3 months or charts every six. No reason at all why standard radio calls can’t be changed to something safer!

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Why is it still in the AIPs?

Could it be that the format is not that important, as long as all the necessary information is included?

I think format becomes important in poor reception conditions. If you know what information is supposed to be stated your brain gets pretty good at hearing through the static. If you have no idea of what was supposed to be said your brain doesn’t know what the context was to try and make sense of the sounds. 

 

Of course that can be a bad thing because your brain is really good at converting something into something else that it is expecting.  But often it’s enough to understand it provided you know what it should be. 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

......................................, no "all stations", no "traffic", no nothing. ............................................................

 

I thought the all stations call went out many years ago.

I still use the "all stations location" . Example:

 

All stations Long Reef - aircraft - registration - entering Victor 1- southbound - 2 POB - all stations long reef.

 

This alerts apposing aircraft, other aircraft entering, other aircraft in vicinity (mainly choppers) of my location, intention, altitude (must be below 500 ft) and crew numbers in case of catastrophe (over water at cliff top hight).

 

I am careful to wait for a pause in verbal traffic and usually only make one other call on this leg of the Sydney coastal light  aircraft rout  - that is on exiting  the V1 call. for all of the aforementioned reasons.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

I think format becomes important in poor reception conditions. If you know what information is supposed to be stated your brain gets pretty good at hearing through the static. If you have no idea of what was supposed to be said your brain doesn’t know what the context was to try and make sense of the sounds. 

Of course that can be a bad thing because your brain is really good at converting something into something else that it is expecting.  But often it’s enough to understand it provided you know what it should be. 

That was the principle behind the standard phrases. In bad weather, or heavy radio traffic, the syllables are often very useful when you can't hear the full words. Non standard transmissions wreck that.

 

 

[M61A1]

I think format becomes important in poor reception conditions. If you know what information is supposed to be stated your brain gets pretty good at hearing through the static. If you have no idea of what was supposed to be said your brain doesn’t know what the context was to try and make sense of the sounds. 

Of course that can be a bad thing because your brain is really good at converting something into something else that it is expecting.  But often it’s enough to understand it provided you know what it should be. 

 

 

That was the principle behind the standard phrases. In bad weather, or heavy radio traffic, the syllables are often very useful when you can't hear the full words. Non standard transmissions wreck that.

Yeah, I get that and agree, But we're all still arguing about the format laid out in CAAPs (advisory) and very few using the format laid out in AIPs (not advisory).

 

 

[Student Pilot]

It's not the end of the world if people use non standard phrasing, to me as long as you get the message across as clear and consice as possible. I'd rather that than somebody prattling on and jamming up the radio waves.

 

 

[derekliston]

And learn to be diplomatic ?

I invariably am, others not so much! If things didn’t change we wouldn’t have to buy a new ERSA every 3 months or charts every six. No reason at all why standard radio calls can’t be changed to something safer!

 

 

[derekliston]

I logged on to the CASA website this afternoon and ordered their booklet on radio procedures outside controlled airspace. Website says the booklet is free and it is, but they then charge you $15 for postage and handling!!!

 

 

[kaz3g]

The CAAP and AIP are recommendations. The CAR’s are rules.

 

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 166C

 

Responsibility for broadcasting on VHF radio

 

             (1)  If: 

 

                     (a)  an aircraft is operating on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome; and 

 

                     (b)  the aircraft is carrying a serviceable aircraft VHF radio; and 

 

                     ©  the pilot in command of the aircraft holds a radiotelephone qualification; 

 

the pilot is responsible for making a broadcast on the VHF frequency in use for the aerodrome in accordance with subregulation (2). 

 

             (2)  The pilot must make a broadcast that includes the following information whenever it is reasonably necessary to do so to avoid a collision, or the risk of a collision, with another aircraft: 

 

                     (a)  the name of the aerodrome; 

 

                     (b)  the aircraft's type and call sign; 

 

                     ©  the position of the aircraft and the pilot's intentions. 

 

Note 1:       See the AIP for the recommended format for broadcasting the information mentioned in this regulation. 

 

Note 2:       For the requirement to maintain a listening watch, see regulation 243.

 

There is no rule against saying “traffic” first and there is no absolute requirement to broadcast at all...only when necessary on a risk basis. If you are landing in your home paddock and no-one is around, don’t bother. If landing at a registered airfield it would be imprudent to stay schtum.

 

kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

Why is it still in the AIPs?

Could it be that the format is not that important, as long as all the necessary information is included?

Yes. CAR166C(2) is an “includes” rule.

 

kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

The AIP is a recommendation...see footnote to CAR.

 

Kaz

 

 

[M61A1]

The AIP is a recommendation...see footnote to CAR.

Kaz

Thankyou for that clarification.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

It's not the end of the world if people use non standard phrasing, to me as long as you get the message across as clear and consice as possible. I'd rather that than somebody prattling on and jamming up the radio waves.

Actually it could be. 

 

Misunderstand and you could collide with conflicting traffic. 

 

The trouble is that non standard phraseology can be interpreted many ways and one persons meaning can be interpreted differently by another. 

 

And non standard phraseology may not be even correctly heard  - someone throws in some word you don’t expect in a background of noise then there’s a good chance you won’t even know what it was they said, let alone their intended meaning. 

 

 

[Downunder]

Many types of public address systems use a "prompt" to get your attention before relevant information is given.

 

A "ding dong" noise or other sound/voice ("attention shoppers...", "This is your pilot speaking, ...")

 

It is NOT important what it is as long as you can then "tune in" to what is being said, to hear the core message after this prompt.

 

For me when flying it is the word "traffic" at the start of a radio call which gives me the prompt to listen to the call.

 

The next word is the "location". This determines whether I need to keep listening or not.

 

If not, I can tune back out and do whatever it was I was doing before hand.

 

If the word "location" becomes the prompt, it is a pain because half the time I miss it, and have to listen intently to the end, to hear the location again.

 

Then find out the "location" was a strip 50 miles away and I listened to all that for nothing.

 

So..... "traffic" then " location", in that order, is just pure common sense...... irrespective of the regulation.

 

And where do regulations come from? God? Some almighty being? Satan? The alcoholic that lives on the corner? Nanna's dog?

 

No people, they come from HUMANS.  And humans are often wrong.....

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Many types of public address systems use a "prompt" to get your attention before relevant information is given.

A "ding dong" noise or other sound/voice ("attention shoppers...", "This is your pilot speaking, ...")

 

It is NOT important what it is as long as you can then "tune in" to what is being said, to hear the core message after this prompt.

 

For me when flying it is the word "traffic" at the start of a radio call which gives me the prompt to listen to the call.

 

The next word is the "location". This determines whether I need to keep listening or not.

 

If not, I can tune back out and do whatever it was I was doing before hand.

 

If the word "location" becomes the prompt, it is a pain because half the time I miss it, and have to listen intently to the end, to hear the location again.

 

Then find out the "location" was a strip 50 miles away and I listened to all that for nothing.

 

So..... "traffic" then " location", in that order, is just pure common sense...... irrespective of the regulation.

 

And where do regulations come from? God? Some almighty being? Satan? The alcoholic that lives on the corner? Nanna's dog?

 

No people, they come from HUMANS.  And humans are often wrong.....

Absolutely agree. 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Many types of public address systems use a "prompt" to get your attention before relevant information is given.

A "ding dong" noise or other sound/voice ("attention shoppers...", "This is your pilot speaking, ...")

 

It is NOT important what it is as long as you can then "tune in" to what is being said, to hear the core message after this prompt.

 

For me when flying it is the word "traffic" at the start of a radio call which gives me the prompt to listen to the call.

 

The next word is the "location". This determines whether I need to keep listening or not.

 

If not, I can tune back out and do whatever it was I was doing before hand.

 

If the word "location" becomes the prompt, it is a pain because half the time I miss it, and have to listen intently to the end, to hear the location again.

 

Then find out the "location" was a strip 50 miles away and I listened to all that for nothing.

 

So..... "traffic" then " location", in that order, is just pure common sense...... irrespective of the regulation.

 

And where do regulations come from? God? Some almighty being? Satan? The alcoholic that lives on the corner? Nanna's dog?

 

No people, they come from HUMANS.  And humans are often wrong.....

 

I think the "All Stations Roma" worked much better, and catered for the "prompt", but it was changed to "Roma traffic",  perhaps without enough objection from the pilot community.

 

The point though, is once it changed, regardless of what we think, and regardless of whether we have a better idea, if we depart from standard phrases there will be other pilots who may not clearly hear our transmissions due to static or heavy traffic and we could finish up with a Dash 8 stuck in our ear.

 

Also, once the deviation starts, the comments like "It doesn't matter what you say as long as people understand" start, and before you know it we have the crap radio regime we have today where there's not enough time to decode "G'day Mate, I'm not familiar with what happens here, can you help me" or the classic one I had to contend with a few years ago "I'm just flying to the right of the airfield" from a pilot who knew which direction he was coming from even if we didn't.

 

 

 

 

[M61A1]

That doesn't really address the more likely scenario of having a Dash 8 stuck in your ear because they missed part of your transmission BECAUSE you were using the "correct" version, which is actually more likely than the reverse.

 

 

[kgwilson]

I logged on to the CASA website this afternoon and ordered their booklet on radio procedures outside controlled airspace. Website says the booklet is free and it is, but they then charge you $15 for postage and handling!!!

A complete rip off. It is a double sided poster that folds down to a credit card size. That should cost $1.00 to post in a standard envelope. 

 

 

[derekliston]

A complete rip off. It is a double sided poster that folds down to a credit card size. That should cost $1.00 to post in a standard envelope. 

According to website it is an A5 booklet, so maybe different, but I agree a rip off.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That doesn't really address the more likely scenario of having a Dash 8 stuck in your ear because they missed part of your transmission BECAUSE you were using the "correct" version, which is actually more likely than the reverse.

I must admit I have never had any problems with commercial pilots.

 

 

[kgwilson]

According to website it is an A5 booklet, so maybe different, but I agree a rip off.

Ah yes there are 2 of them with almost identical names. The poster one is

 

 

Handy double-sided information poster which folds down to a credit-card size for easy reference. Includes circuit procedure diagram and non-controlled aerodrome radio procedures.

 

The A5 booklet one is

 

 

This handy 8pp A5 booklet provides information on radio usage in non-controlled (or ‘Class G’) airspace. 

 

Topics covered include radio frequencies, phraseology and when to broadcast.

 

No confusion  at all??? Given that they are free it seems crazy they don't offer a download option.

 

 

[M61A1]

I must admit I have never had any problems with commercial pilots.

There is a daily one around here I have learned to listen out for.

 

Generally around the same time every day in light twin, with a rapid fire transmission and a not so good radio or perhaps headset, as there seems to be quite a variation in the clarity on transmissions. Some days it's perfect others, you'd swear it was broken gibberish from a couple of hundred miles away despite being only five or so.

 

 

[derekliston]

There is a daily one around here I have learned to listen out for.

Generally around the same time every day in light twin, with a rapid fire transmission and a not so good radio or perhaps headset, as there seems to be quite a variation in the clarity on transmissions. Some days it's perfect others, you'd swear it was broken gibberish from a couple of hundred miles away despite being only five or so.

I think I might have heard that one, quite possibly what prompted me to create this thread in the first place. Absolutely zero contribution to flight safety!