turboplanner Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Off subject a little - but this is just what the fireys don't need right now. There's some real low-life scum out there. With a bit of karma, their own home will be in the path of a fire, soon - and the fireys won't be able to help them, due to the missing equipment. https://www.criticalcomms.com.au/content/industry/news/equipment-stolen-from-rfs-radio-repeater-vehicle-338899293#axzz67HPpKaqg I could only see the headline, where someone has stolen equipment from a Fire Service radio repeater truck. There are some sad apologies for people around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Getting back to aircraft, these photos show the intensity of radiated heat and what it will do to a house, street or cluster of houses. We've discussed hitting the fireline on the upwind side, or on calm days with low grass fires with floggers or bags, or even stamping with your feet, and the various water pumping units from farm trucks and trailers to CFS/dedicated fire trucks which can squirt out quite a long stream. But on hot days with high winds, or bush fires, so much radiated heat is generatedthat the trucks can't get close enough and the hose sytream isn't long enough to reach the seat of a fire. The photo on the right shows the intensity of the heat. The photo on the left shows a house destroyed by radiant heat, the next one a town, and the next one a cluster. With the fires we have year in year out this radiant heat is generated by large trees being planted right up to and among houses, but on days like Ash Wednesday, with searing winds, even grass fires will take out houses. In the early years, with gravity defeating the fire hoses, helicopters and crop spraying aircraft mad use of gravity, to be able to fly above the intense radiated heat, and use gravity to drop the water around houses, streets and clusters, and the forst Erikson helicopter did much the same, flew in a line along the fore line, just dropping its water. This didn't work all that well if you lost visibility in smoke or were choking in it anf fighting the turbulence, and I noticed last year in a fire being worked by an Erikson on an intense fire in 5 metre high gorse that the helicopters had progressed to "throwing" the water at the high radiation sections, and "throwing" small dumps of water to spot what they'd previously knocked down. So the techniques are evolving, and there are new opportunities with these techniques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 Bush Fire country Why bush roadsides should be cleared, fire trucks should be carrying chain saws, people are told to get out well ahead of the fire. A lot of people have also been killed over the years while they were standing there looking for a way through; trees can burn from the inside then drop siliently, and without their leaves to act like a parachute they come down fast. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 This is why we are told to get out well before the fire approaches. Once the fire front gets close, dense smoke is moving ahead of it and you can't see. Like the car on the left, many drivers crash into something and immobilise the car, and then can't outrun the fire, or they can't find a way out and cluster together trying to work out what to do. When the burning trees generate the radiant heat a car becomes the same as a camp oven. These are Ash Wednesday fatalities. Note that in the photo on the right you can see through to green grass (but at the time the drivers could probably only see a few metres in front) State government procedures since then have been changed to a warning that it is too late to leave, and to stay in your home which can withstand more radiant heat so a better chance of survival. Maybe it would be possible to develop our aerial units to hit some of these clusters and their surrounds with Phos Check before the radiant heat phase starts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deanfi Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 A helicopter fighting the fires had had a very hard landing at Newcastle , reporting no injuries thankfully, https://7news.com.au/news/nsw/helicopter-believed-to-be-nsw-rfs-waterbombing-aircraft-crashes-in-crawford-river-c-593975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 Fantastic air show yesterday afternoon - DC 10, C-130, Boeing 737 , Avro RJ85 and "Birddog" Aero Commander all performing a few hundred feet over our heads, much closer, lower & more dramatic than any air show I have been to. Made the previous 24 hrs of waiting in thick smoke worthwhile - even had an impact on the fires ++ 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deanfi Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 A helicopter fighting the fires had had a very hard landing at Newcastle , reporting no injuries thankfully, https://7news.com.au/news/nsw/helicopter-believed-to-be-nsw-rfs-waterbombing-aircraft-crashes-in-crawford-river-c-593975 Looks like a Huey https://www.9news.com.au/national/nsw-fires-qld-updates-bushfire-emergency-sydney-smoke-air-pollution/69bbf8a9-3ec2-4e4d-84cf-eb51363f35c7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 The smoke haze is having a major impact, not just on people's mood and health, but on aircraft movements. This morning I was asked for visibility advice by a local returning from delivering a water bomber pilot. A few minutes after I gave my call it became denser; the pilot couldn't see our airport and had to divert, leading to lots of inconvenience. Safe, but spoiled someone's day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 We've had fires since July and smoke/dust haze for 6 weeks. How the water bombers manage is amazing. Tomorrow the new Grafton bridge opens & 9 aircraft from our club are supposed to be doing a flypast at 9am. It may or may not happen. I have woken to find a nice day here in Corindi & think I'll go for a fly, arrive at the hangar & can't see the end of the runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 The smoke haze is having a major impact, not just on people's mood and health, but on aircraft movements. This morning I was asked for visibility advice by a local returning from delivering a water bomber pilot. A few minutes after I gave my call it became denser; the pilot couldn't see our airport and had to divert, leading to lots of inconvenience. Safe, but spoiled someone's day. Itchy eyes, raspy throat, low grade headache and somehow the baleful yellow light is very depressing and that s all befor the media inform me, a non smoker, that I am inhaling the equivalent of 35 fags/day. Thought about flying (up to fresh air) but then dont want to get in the way of the air opps and visibility on/near the ground can be very variable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 ...Thought about flying (up to fresh air... Tempting thought. I suspect media may be downplaying the crap air quality lest there be a wave of panic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 7, 2019 Share Posted December 7, 2019 Tempting thought. I suspect media may be downplaying the crap air quality lest there be a wave of panic. The State Government should be issuing safety warnings (and may be doing that in some bulletins or on Area Emergency Fire Apps for phones. Here's some USEPA data on Particulate Matter, including PM in smoke. Particulate Matter (PM) PM is a complex mixture of extremely small particles and liquid droplets, including acids such as nitrates and sulphates, organic chemicals, metals, soil, dust. Particles 10 micrometres in diameter or smaller are of most concern as they generally pass through the throat and nose and enter the lungs. Once inhaled, they can affect the heart and lungs, and cause serious health effects. “Coarse particles” such as those found near roadways and dusty industries, range in size from 2.5 to 10 micrometres in diameter. “Fine particles” such as those found in smoke and haze, have diameters smaller than 2.5 micrometres. Health Effects Increased respiratory symptoms, such as irritation of the airways, coughing, or difficulty breathing. Decreased lung function Aggravated asthma Development of chronic bronchitis Irregular heartbeat Premature death in people with heart or lung disease Source: United States Environmental Protection Agency PM10 matter can travel up to 50 km in the air; PM2.5 can travel for hundreds of kilometres. In Australia, particulate emissions were reduced by 97% from the 1992 levels, and the 1992 levels were a substantial reduction from the 1980’s Ringelmann Chart smoke levels. From about 2005, motor vehicles were actually processing and cleaning ambient air in cities, and by 2019, about 7 million Australian motor vehicles are pumping out cleaned air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Report a couple of hours ago: US specialists touch down in Sydney, includes aviation specialists: https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/it-smells-like-it-s-time-to-go-to-work-american-firefighters-arrive-in-sydney-20191208-p53hxt.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Report a couple of hours ago: US specialists touch down in Sydney, includes aviation specialists: https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/it-smells-like-it-s-time-to-go-to-work-american-firefighters-arrive-in-sydney-20191208-p53hxt.html Saved!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 "saved!!!" Key people all the way up the fire fighting structure need to rest and sleep. Australia has been sending fire fighters to the US for years to take over from US personnel off and resting/sleeping. The protocols developed work, so this is reciprocal action from the US. I've forgotten how long fire fighters have been on the job, but I think it's more than a month. Former RF member Ahlocks has made three trips from Wagga up into northern NSW and the last one was a nightmare, getting bogged being given a burnt truck, trans-shipping other trucks over long distance to get fully operating vehicles to the fire front - there's a lot of stress up there and the Americans haven't just come to save us. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Key people all the way up the fire fighting structure need to rest and sleep. Australia has been sending fire fighters to the US for years to take over from US personnel off and resting/sleeping. The protocols developed work, so this is reciprocal action from the US. I've forgotten how long fire fighters have been on the job, but I think it's more than a month. Former RF member Ahlocks has made three trips from Wagga up into northern NSW and the last one was a nightmare, getting bogged being given a burnt truck, trans-shipping other trucks over long distance to get fully operating vehicles to the fire front - there's a lot of stress up there and the Americans haven't just come to save us. Interesting - erlier comments, within this conversation, held that our military could not participate in fire fighting due to factors like differences between north & south fire behaviour (I do not agree) and now we have personnel from another country/culture doing what?? me thinks this is a political gesture of little practical merritt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Swapping over due to the summer /winter has worked well for years. The new overlapping situation has affected it as they can't come here if needed there. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 In the immortal words of our red headed saint of the chippy - "please explain" how on the one hand our military can not participate , even in a support role, yet a few overseas "volunteers" are welcomed like saviours . By the way I think help from wherever is great, I just feel there is a more cynical explanation when it comes to these grand (insignificant) gestures . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Insignificant in this instant is misplaced. It HAS worked for both parties. Proven and appreciated. All experienced and trained for the job. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 On the weekend I stopped for a yarn to a local farmer who was sitting in the shade with his horse while his cattle grazed the roadside. This used to be a common practice and greatly reduced fire hazards. These days you almost never see stock grazing "the long paddock"; grass is waist-high while just thru the fence, animals are scratching at bare dirt. Why? He had to spend heaps of time at local council getting numerous bits of paper, plus authorisation from his insurance company. Even then, he was restricted to a small area and set times. No wonder so many fires start on our roadsides. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 Insignificant in this instant is misplaced. It HAS worked for both parties. Proven and appreciated. All experienced and trained for the job. Nev Propaganda !! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 In the immortal words of our red headed saint of the chippy - "please explain" how on the one hand our military can not participate , even in a support role, yet a few overseas "volunteers" are welcomed like saviours . By the way I think help from wherever is great, I just feel there is a more cynical explanation when it comes to these grand (insignificant) gestures . Very simple; the Australian fire fighters who go to the US are fully trained firefighters The US fire fighters who come to Australia are fully trained firefighters. Both countries have similar fire fighting regimes. Both countries have similar command systems. Almost certainly this group will include senior people trained in command, people trained on the Erikson operation requirement and they will all be paid by Australia, or Australia will pay their US equivalent fire services. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Very simple; the Australian fire fighters who go to the US are fully trained firefighters The US fire fighters who come to Australia are fully trained firefighters. Both countries have similar fire fighting regimes. Both countries have similar command systems. Almost certainly this group will include senior people trained in command, people trained on the Erikson operation requirement and they will all be paid by Australia, or Australia will pay their US equivalent fire services. Great positive statement BUT avoided addressing my questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Great positive statement BUT avoided addressing my questions Well maybe someone else would like to have a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Well maybe someone else would like to have a go. https://www.airforce.gov.au/news-and-events/news/australian-defence-force-supports-fire-fighting-efforts-nsw-and-qld Military are participating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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