facthunter Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 You have already said it's propaganda!!, with no explanation/elaboration so what does that do for discussion? . Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 https://www.airforce.gov.au/news-and-events/news/australian-defence-force-supports-fire-fighting-efforts-nsw-and-qld Military are participating Wow !! is this a first ?? (in recent times) - how far does/will it go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 They are only doing some flights to move fire fighters. They are not doing anything a commercial lift can't do. So more a branding exercise for gov than a big effort. But if you watched Parliament last week, you would not know they cared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Wow !! is this a first ?? (in recent times) - how far does/will it go? No, it's a long way from being a first, and is what we mentioned a few posts ago. When the pilots' strike was on, people booked to fly interstate were flown by Hercules, helicopters are used in flood times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 You have already said it's propaganda!!, with no explanation/elaboration so what does that do for discussion? . Nev Ah my dear Nev - as I am sure you know only to well, the nature of propaganda is it seeks to become the accepted doctrine/truth. Propaganda is not necessarily "fake news" the best is the subtle manipulation of the facts, exaggerations and avoidance, etc The grand gesture, big parade, fireworks for the masses, etc etc Those that are to trusting or accepting of the Government line are most likely to regurgitate the same. When I see inconsistencies being "peddled" by those in authority I suspect propagande. When I get gushing support statements, that do not address the point, I suspect propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 The day I just accept any gov't line will never come, Skip. You don't know me. I'm even sceptical of sceptics. This arrangement with the US has been going on for years. and has worked remarkably well , unless I've missed something. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deanfi Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 Blackhawks arrived today , will be in the air tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 The day I just accept any gov't line will never come, Skip. You don't know me. I'm even sceptical of sceptics. This arrangement with the US has been going on for years. and has worked remarkably well , unless I've missed something. Nev Fair enough. I accept that experience is a great teacher and we may be able to learn from other firefighters, just as they may from us. So I have no doubt that so the assistance/swap may have real longer term benefits but how can a few imports actually have any significant short term (the fire today/tomorrow) benefit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Fair enough. I accept that experience is a great teacher and we may be able to learn from other firefighters, just as they may from us. So I have no doubt that so the assistance/swap may have real longer term benefits but how can a few imports actually have any significant short term (the fire today/tomorrow) benefit ? They are briefed, then they step in and take over the job of an Australian firefighter who is dropping from exhaustion and stress. The Australians who go to the US are usually in the command chain, and I saw one video where an Australian walked straight in and took command of about 30 firefighhters. The issue is the CFS are not bringing these people in to work just tomorrow; who can forecast when the fires will be put out, or worse, whether hot days create other fires of the same magnitude. With these people filling command positions there's a come completed 24/7 team. Interstate Australian teams have been going up there for weeks; same principle, trained people who can walk straight in and take over, and known how to do each job. I think we've had Canadians here for about three weeks as well. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Personally I am grateful for help from overseas just as they are grateful when we help them. These arrangements have been in place for quite some time. From the The Washington Post 21 August 2015: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/08/21/why-the-u-s-just-summoned-firefighters-from-australia-and-new-zealand/ First they called in the U.S. military — and Canadian firefighting support. But with the nation still at wildfire preparedness Level 5 — the highest there is — and spending $ 150 million per week fighting fires, it still hasn’t been enough. So now, 71 firefighters from half the world away, Australia and New Zealand, are being called up to help, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. “We currently remain at National Preparedness Level 5, our resources are fully committed and there are no season-ending weather events in the foreseeable forecast,” said National Multi-Agency Coordinating Group chair Aitor Bidaburu in a statement. “Because of the current level of commitment and forecast, having fire management expertise from Australian and New Zealand firefighters will be of tremendous help as we continue suppressing ongoing fires.” This is not the first time that the United States has relied on firefighters from so far away. There’s a history of such international collaboration with Australia and New Zealand, going back to the year 2000, which the National Interagency Fire Center says is “the first time their firefighters fought fires on American soil.” The United States has also sent its own firefighters to these countries when they need aid: 67 to Australia in 2007 and 73 in 2009. The reason this works, according to the NIFC, is that the two countries are “very similar to the United States national fire organization in training requirements and structure.” 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 No, it's a long way from being a first, and is what we mentioned a few posts ago. When the pilots' strike was on, people booked to fly interstate were flown by Hercules, helicopters are used in flood times. The Pilots Strike - ye gods that was a squilian years ago and was an aircraft industry specific emergency - there are adults alive to day who were born after that event - hardly a good example. True we do seem to see military choppers being sued in flood emergencies - dont you think its odd that a flood seems to be treated differently to a fire emergency. My point is that the military should ALWAYS / AUTOMATICALLY be available to attend any emergency where civilian response is in danger of being overwhelmed. This should not be a political issue just "standing orders". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Personally I am grateful for help from overseas just as they are grateful when we help them. These arrangements have been in place for quite some time. From the The Washington Post 21 August 2015: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/08/21/why-the-u-s-just-summoned-firefighters-from-australia-and-new-zealand/ First they called in the U.S. military — and Canadian firefighting support. But with the nation still at wildfire preparedness Level 5 — the highest there is — and spending $ 150 million per week fighting fires, it still hasn’t been enough. So now, 71 firefighters from half the world away, Australia and New Zealand, are being called up to help, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. “We currently remain at National Preparedness Level 5, our resources are fully committed and there are no season-ending weather events in the foreseeable forecast,” said National Multi-Agency Coordinating Group chair Aitor Bidaburu in a statement. “Because of the current level of commitment and forecast, having fire management expertise from Australian and New Zealand firefighters will be of tremendous help as we continue suppressing ongoing fires.” This is not the first time that the United States has relied on firefighters from so far away. There’s a history of such international collaboration with Australia and New Zealand, going back to the year 2000, which the National Interagency Fire Center says is “the first time their firefighters fought fires on American soil.” The United States has also sent its own firefighters to these countries when they need aid: 67 to Australia in 2007 and 73 in 2009. The reason this works, according to the NIFC, is that the two countries are “very similar to the United States national fire organization in training requirements and structure.” I like you am grateful for any help to control what is an unprecedented fire situation - I just wonder at the hype that goes with a few people coming from OS and the silence that accompanies the failure of our military to be involved in a significant way.. That a reciprocal stroking arrangement has been in place for some time does not change my scepticism of the benefit compared with using local, tax payer funded, resources (military) sitting idle in their bases. Your quoting of an American news story just demonstrates that propaganda is used by other governments in much the same way as ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Well they’re all too busy to worry about anyone’s analysis right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 My point is that the military should ALWAYS / AUTOMATICALLY be available to attend any emergency where civilian response is in danger of being overwhelmed. This should not be a political issue just "standing orders". I am wondering why you believe that the average member of the ADF has more fire fighting ability and experience than someone with experience and in this case very recent experience. Whilst there are some in the ADF whose training may be useful the ADF comprises of many different jobs. I spent 12 years in the RAAF I was a full time musician, I played in the band not really skill a skill useful in fighting bush fires. My understanding is that volunteer fire fighters do a lot of training specific to fighting fires surely in order to give some of them a break we need people with similar training. I cant understand why you find this such troublesome issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 https://www.airforce.gov.au/news-and-events/news/australian-defence-force-supports-fire-fighting-efforts-nsw-and-qld Military are participating The ARH Tigers were also mobilised a couple of weeks ago from Rockhampton down to Ballina Generally flying at night when the firebombers weren't. Using their thermal imaging overlaid on digital maps in real time to provide firefighters with accurate and current information. The Pilots Strike - ye gods that was a squilian years ago and was an aircraft industry specific emergency - there are adults alive to day who were born after that event - hardly a good example. True we do seem to see military choppers being sued in flood emergencies - dont you think its odd that a flood seems to be treated differently to a fire emergency. My point is that the military should ALWAYS / AUTOMATICALLY be available to attend any emergency where civilian response is in danger of being overwhelmed. This should not be a political issue just "standing orders". None of the military aircraft are set up for firefighting, and to do so would take mountains of paperwork, and engineers years to complete the modifications necessary not to mention the necessary training and accreditation. They are already set up to extract people from tight places like flooded areas, so apples and oranges comparison. Yes, they should be able to assist with any emergency, but if you can't do anything to help, you're better off out of the way. Why not set up the trusty Zephyr for firebombing and get out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 On this morning's news, 1 million hectares has been burnt out in NSW, 0.9 million in Queensland, and there is now an out of control fire in East Gippsland which is likely to be running for weeks, if not months in remote country. To get an idea of the firefighting task, there is 11,000 kilometres of fireline in NSW today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 And we can expect even hotter weather for a couple of months. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 First point ; Saw on the news this morning that Morrison is supplying ADF assets to the fire emergency - Great News! Second: I am continually amazed at some of my respondents - their ability to read into my comments, suggestions that are so far from what I said/suggested, to be "terminological inexactitudes" eg I only ever suggested the ADF in support roles, for which their personnel/equipment are more than capable and yet I continue to get comments about training/experience. Third: I have consistently said that I welcome assistance,from whomsoever - I was highlighting the (at the time) lack of ADF input while the "red carpet" was being rolled out for a few OS volunteers - made no sense to me. Fourth: I know this is an aviation centric forum but the focus on ADF assets to the exclusion of all others makes no sense Fifth: The suggestion that a C!30 type aircraft, could not be quickly configured for fire fighting is just ludicrous, of course I assume that our leaders would have ordered the "plug & play"equipment necessary to do so (bladder tanks , pumps and delivery/spray mechanisms) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Next one up in the blue sky, please fill lb a bottle of clean air for me. I agree, put those musicians were they,r needed. A nice lullaby, to help the exhausted to have a good sleep spacesailor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 The suggestion that a C!30 type aircraft, could not be quickly configured for fire fighting is just ludicrous, of course I assume that our leaders would have ordered the "plug & play"equipment necessary to do so (bladder tanks , pumps and delivery/spray mechanisms) Clearly, you have no idea how the ADF certification process works. "Plug and Play" might work if they had previously acquired the equipment, tested and trained in it's use. Clearly they have not. Assumptions are the mother of all F*ckups 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Actually on this one, I would leave it to the experts who are likely to have to process the final situations /arrangements and live with the consequences.. Certainly not what Pollies with sudden brainfarts might conjure up to Look as if they are doing something.. . Flying heavies in radiant heat with a likelihood that superhot oxygen starved very turbulent air is all that's keeping them off the ground less than 100ft below is not easy pickings as a flying job environment. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Nev, it sounds like you are suggesting that our military pilots are not as skilled/brave as our contract private crop duster pilots, who are presently bombing the fires by flying airtractors at low level in turbulent Smokey, hot air. I would hope that our military pilots have had some training in the art of bombing ! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomadpete Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 I don't think Skippy meant that the military should try to start firebombing without the right equipment. It wouldn't take a lot of foresight in a bushfire prone country, to buy some basic stuff in preparation for the armed forces to assist the people of Australia. Compared to the expenditure on submarines and unfinished fighter jets, it would cost peanuts and would actually be useful. 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 The ADF have helped in previous emergencies where they have expertise, even if it is only helping clean up after the floods. We cannot expect them to take on a job such as fire fighting with no training. If we consider that their role is as a back up for emergency responders, we should get them trained first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Pete, I never implied any such judgement but I think it's far more risky than most appreciate. We get some croppies breaking up and plenty of heavies do too overseas., fairly regularly. I personally don't think they are strong enough to put up with what's thrown at them. Bombers and civil airline/military transports are not built to high load factors and OLDER stuff has lots of hours and that makes them even more suspect as far as the structure is concerned. As far as bombing goes they don't drop bombs from 100 feet flying along a descending ridge with flames all around them in severe turbulence. They do it from the stratosphere at minus 60 degrees in smooth air and the bombs are guided or set up and aimed very precisely. I wouldn't ask anyone to do this sort of work. I can't think of anything much more dangerous than this..Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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