NSW Boeing 737 Fire Bomber

[Guest deanfi]

Its no more "complex" than the politicians/vested interests want to make it, to suit their agendas 

 

"out sourcing is probably  cheaper" - whaaat!? outsourcing merely relocates the cost to another silo/bucket, giving the illusion of saving and is usually way more expensive IF you compare equal  products/service. Our bureaucracy is a master at fudging the figures & facts to suit their desired SHORT TERM outcome(s)

 

I have no idea of the costs but if the military does so much outsourcing they must be getting a economic benefit from it or they would not do it.

 

You have probably seen the 2 private planes at Richmond that are contracted to do army parachuting , the yanks have private companies doing air refueling ,there is so much outsourcing and I believe in a time of war it will come back to bite them.

 

I would not be surprised if the DC10 at  a reported $50k per flying hour not to mention cost on ground is still cheaper than what the C130 costs the RAAF. It may not be I don't know just surmising  .

 

Anyway I am thankfull we have had few days respite from the fires .

 

The fire in the Katoomba area is potentially very bad news  , it has escaped into the megalong valley and will be very hard to stop, we where watching the DC-10 take off from Richmond this afternoon heading out to Katoomba , great climb rate !

 

 

[skippydiesel]

I have no idea of the costs but if the military does so much outsourcing they must be getting a economic benefit from it or they would not do it.

 

Outsourcing can result in efficiencies BUT when it becomes a fashion/faith statement (following the economic basket case & undisputed fashion leader the User Pay Ununited States Of America) it is no longer about rational cost based efficiency - its about being seen to do something/anything. Politics/Religion! We no longer understand synergy.  Until we develop (rediscover) a real understanding of the interrelationships of work, systems & industry (economic strategy) and make long term decisions based on the same, we will always be a fourth rate influence dependent on larger powers for their patronage.

 

You have probably seen the 2 private planes at Richmond that are contracted to do army parachuting , the yanks have private companies doing air refueling ,there is so much outsourcing and I believe in a time of war it will come back to bite them.

 

Not just war - natural & economic disasters.

 

Certain sections of the private sector are, by far, the biggest monetary beneficiary in times of national upheaval.

 

I would not be surprised if the DC10 at  a reported $50k per flying hour not to mention cost on ground is still cheaper than what the C130 costs the RAAF. It may not be I don't know just surmising  .

 

You surely jest ? - the private sector must make a short term profit to survive. The public sector can and should take a much longer &  broader view

 

 

 

Anyway I am thankfull we have had few days respite from the fires .

 

The fire in the Katoomba area is potentially very bad news  , it has escaped into the megalong valley and will be very hard to stop, we where watching the DC-10 take off from Richmond this afternoon heading out to Katoomba , great climb rate !

 

Yes a truly magnificent spectacle, that we have funded. I too enjoyed my ring side seat at the fire bomber air show. Unfortunately three days of Elvis is about two to many.

 

The belief that the market knows best is, when applied to all sectors of society/activity, a gross perversion of reality.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Outsourcing can result in efficiencies BUT when it becomes a fashion/faith statement (following the economic basket case & undisputed fashion leader the User Pay Ununited States Of America) ...

 

I'd bet that industry lobbyists are right now trying to extract even more taxpayer dollars from our governments;

 

The party which claims to favour private enterprise and which is gutting our traditionally independent and impartial public service are happy to subsidise their mates in private industry- who probably find an easy way to avoid paying any of it back as company tax.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'd bet that industry lobbyists are right now trying to extract even more taxpayer dollars from our governments;

 

The party which claims to favour private enterprise and which is gutting our traditionally independent and impartial public service are happy to subsidise their mates in private industry- who probably find an easy way to avoid paying any of it back as company tax.

 

Leftist propaganda; we need to be alert to ANY ATTEMPT to siphon off the money taxpayers put into the government banks via our income tax, excise tax on every litre of fuel we buy, GST on top of excise tax, thought bubble schemes, grants to hand over Australia to Canadian Indians by mistake, land tax, infrastructure projects which go nowhere or do nothing for election purposes. As for your independent and impartial public service, after going through five feet of documents, I found two government departments had "made up" a safe level for dioxins, which doesn't exist in reality. They'd done it to save money. One child born without eyes so far and counting.

 

It's interesting that you've built your comments on the back of a person's assertions based on no knowledge of whether there are even tasks available for the existing aerial equipment, let alone whether they need any more.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Government contracts are always the most lucrative and easiest to rort. The childcare industry is one simple example although some finally got caught. Winning a government contract is like winning the lottery. They pay the most and don't do a good job of checking results. They sometimes don't even check whether money they spend is going to the right place.

 

 

[onetrack]

KGW is on the mark. The W.A. State Govt has only just uncovered a Senior bureaucrat rorting the system with false invoicing to the tune of at least $25M - over a period possibly as long as 11 years.

 

The total theft is reported to be likely up to $40M.

 

It beggars belief that any Govt Dept could have a system whereby invoices are not checked. The anger amongst locals is palpable, and this bloke would be shot without ceremony in China.

 

But there's little doubt a vast proportion of the monies will be written off as "unrecoverable", and he will get a light jail sentence, as all white-collar criminals do.

 

Now, with the realisation that there could be more thieves in the public service, they've started doing some audits and discovered another bloke who has rorted vehicle servicing by $1.5M in Western Power, a State Govt owned corporation.

 

If I was Premier, I'd start sacking every head and every senior manager of every Govt Dept where corruption and theft was found, because this only shows, that senior public servants we are paying vast salaries to, are basically incompetent, because they can't even put in place, basic financial checks against fraud and theft.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-02/woman-charged-over-wa-department-communities-corruption/11757892

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-12/western-power-executive-charged-over-1.5m-dollar-corruption/11794974

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Leftist propaganda;

 

Rightist misinformation! 

 

...we need to be alert to ANY ATTEMPT to siphon off the money taxpayers put into the government banks via our income tax, excise tax on every litre of fuel we buy, GST on top of excise tax, thought bubble schemes, grants to hand over Australia to Canadian Indians by mistake, land tax, infrastructure projects which go nowhere or do nothing for election purposes...

 

Looks like we agree! I hope you also agree that our current Federal government has done quite a bit of that.

 

...As for your independent and impartial public service, after going through five feet of documents, I found two government departments had "made up" a safe level for dioxins, which doesn't exist in reality. They'd done it to save money. One child born without eyes so far and counting...

 

I never said our public service was perfect; just more likely to have the public good in mind than Morrison's army of "consultants" and lobbyists.

 

...It's interesting that you've built your comments on the back of a person's assertions based on no knowledge of whether there are even tasks available for the existing aerial equipment, let alone whether they need any more.

 

 So we the ignorant masses are not entitled to question government policy and to suggest they make full use of the expensive kit they already own?

 

 

[Litespeed]

Yesterday on ABC radio....

 

Greg Mullins former head fire chief stated- there is considerable ability for armed services to contribute fire fighting gear, trucks, tankers, base camps, fuel, food , transport and aerial services of Intel, search and even firebombing.

 

He said we are the only country who do not actively seek to use our forces in such mass  events.

 

The roll on firegear is suited to c130 etc and easily available. Used all over world and RAAF could be quickly trained. 

 

Even in non direct fire roles,  he felt a great deal more could be done to assist.

 

He also said the claim we have enough aircraft is total bullshit.

 

It is about the right plane for the job and we have way too few big boys available for the country. Also claims we can just lease more easily are also bullshit. They will be needed in the USA etc as fire seasons are overlapping.

 

They have been screaming for a whole year the funding for leases was too little. Now Scomo agrees to double it with a extra $ 11 million. That is for whole season and all the country.

 

Not enough for a bad week.

 

He was clearly of view that claims the military were not suitable were like saying a gun can't shoot bullets.

 

They are by nature the fast responders as they have all the gear for instant dispersal, all the aircraft for lifting gear etc.

 

A nation that can't or won't use its military in a national emergency and have planned for such things, will have not teal ability to defend even a small enemy attacking.

 

Do you think we will get months of notice of invasion? Argue about how to respond ? 

 

No you ring the clanger and react.

 

Also claims of private does better for services contracts is complete right wing rippoff talk.

 

A friend was a top gun electrical systems specialist for the fighters. Replaced by a very expensive contract..

 

So the real guys sat on around and only allowed to check batteries whilst waiting for a contractor to turn up and rarely do the work. All at million s in extra costs. So naturally they got made redundant, paid out and return now working on contract at 5 times the previous cost and now doing 1/2 the work. Brilliant spend ten times as much for the same work.

 

Defence and government are full of this crap. Would not buy a ten dollar socket when you can lease it for a hundred dollars.

 

Such a stupid country

 

 

[Thruster88]

Pulling an all nighter on black Friday to get this mighty machine back on the job today

 

[onetrack]

So naturally they got made redundant, paid out and return now working on contract at 5 times the previous cost and now doing 1/2 the work. Brilliant spend ten times as much for the same work.

 

The same thing happened at Telstra about 20 years ago. You called in a fault with Telstra back then, it was usually attended to the same day (unless it was a remote area).

 

Some hot-shot American rolled up on a "Find cost-savings" drive, and told Telstra bosses they had way too many linesmen for the size of the company. So Telstra made hundreds of lineys redundant, often with large payouts.

 

What happened? There wasn't enough lineys left to attend to Telstra faults - and fault repair times started to blow out to 2 and 3 weeks. Telstra customers became enraged and the message finally got through to Telstra management.

 

So what did they do? They re-hired most of the redundant lineys on contracts - at vastly more money than the lineys would have ever got working for Telstra. Such is the regular idiocy of this countrys management.

 

 

[facthunter]

 ANY CEO who immediately sacks lots of workers causes an instant RISE in the share values of the Company. He (or she) may actually be handicapping the company and crippling it's future is any expansion is likely. Workers are assetts like anything else on their inventory . Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

Not only will the shares rise but the 20 million saved in theory finds its way into the executive pay on a actual basis.

 

The CEO now goes from 50 times average wages to 100 times and complains they are worth much more.

 

Any complaints are class warfare by the leftwing bludgers apparently.

 

Want more for the poor- socialism

 

Want to subsidise a rich business- damn good economic management.

 

Want to reduce inequality? Damn communist class warfare.

 

What? you want to protest- go straight to goal- you leftist scum.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

With reference to Government contracts - two additional points that may have been missed - 

 

The Government is open to "variations" to a contract. 

 

A variation is usually requested by the contractor when it is felt that some unseen/unforecastable/uncontrollable factor has increased the cost  of the work and he/she wishes to pass this on to the Government. The Government is quite open to this and in fact many contractors use this "facility" to underquote to get the work and then request a variation. We are all familiar with project cost "blow outs". I perceive, that this is also a mechanism by which favoured contractors get the job (somehow knowing how low they need to make their initial quote) only to get a variation which significantly changes the costs.

 

Contracts involving an on going service (eg fire fighting response)

 

I would suggest these are pretty well "open ended" agreements where the service provider almost dictates the amount of service to charge for eg Fire Bombing. In this example we have ground personnel (RFS etc) stretched to breaking point ,it's easy (& understandable) for them to call in the Bombers (makes a great visual impression). No doubt the Bombers are on some sort of retainer to cover their relocation/setup/basic daily costs (just in case Au doesnt have a bad fireseason). However I am sure the Bombers are being paid by the sortie hour - more hours more $$$$$.  In our area the need for the Bombers to attend every little spot fire is now a reality, much to the delight of the contractors. Its a license to print money.

 

The use of military assets would significantly reduce the nations firefighting costs - no doubt at all in my mind.

 

 

[M61A1]

Yesterday on ABC radio....

 

There's your problem......

 

The use of military assets would significantly reduce the nations firefighting costs - no doubt at all in my mind.

 

No government organisation can ever do anything as cost effectively as a private one.

 

Mind you...if the bill is being paid with someone else's money, you probably don't care.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

There's your problem......

 

No government organisation can ever do anything as cost effectively as a private one.

 

Mind you...if the bill is being paid with someone else's money, you probably don't care.

 

 

 

This is religious doctrine - O ye faithful & willing slave.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...We are all familiar with project cost "blow outs". I perceive, that this is also a mechanism by which favoured contractors get the job (somehow knowing how low they need to make their initial quote) only to get a variation which significantly changes the costs...

 

Perhaps one reason the LNP has resisted having a federal anti-corruption authority.

 

 

[mnewbery]

I'm going to give a +1 to @M61A1 here. The hourly operating costs for military assets are mostly known. For example in 2005 an Army AU chinook ran to about $65k/hr when averaged out over an engine lifetime. Same aircraft in civilian hands is operated for logging (quoted) at $10k USD.

 

Army = $65,000 AU per airframe hour. The engine lifetime could be one year, ten or whatever. Our 1966 kiowas were waved bye bye only this year

 

An AS350 hires out in Australia for less than $1500 per airframe hour. The sky cranes are going to be somewhere between $9k AU and $15k AU. All this stuff was second hand civilian and readily available when moved to aerial fire fighting and the people who use them only use them for fire fighting. Parts can be had quickly 

 

So yes the military have "bought and paid for" assets but when they are used up, the bill to replace them must be paid by federal taxes. Alternatively, the army and airforce could use all of their aviation assets in one summer then have nothing left for international disaster relief, support of the Bougainville referendum, joint exercises, training ... Or actual Defence of the country.

 

Sounds like a very expensive way to disarm an entire country. Military hardware doesn't grow on trees.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Let's hope that we have a full and independent inquiry into the bushfires and the response to them.

 

This could allow everyone with expertise and experience to have their say.

 

 

[mnewbery]

This crap about enquiries into corrupt payment for aerial FF contracts comes up every year in every jurisdiction that have contracts.

 

I've got an idea. How about we all figure out a way to fight and prevent fires without aerial FF?

 

I think our indigenous traditional custodians may have got on for a few thousand years before the invention of the turbine crop duster

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sounds like a very expensive way to disarm an entire country. Military hardware doesn't grow on trees.

 

 

 

I wouldn't worry about it; no one has come up with any information that says the Qld, NSW or Victorian fire services need any more equipment than they've got, so the hyperbole has fed on itself morphing into a politicalfest and fairyland story.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Let's hope that we have a full and independent inquiry into the bushfires and the response to them.

 

This could allow everyone with expertise and experience to have their say.

 

Why?

 

No one out in the real world has said there's a problem with the responses.

 

 

[facthunter]

These guy and gals (where applicable) are going to run out of puff and money in some cases . There's no rain forecast and hot months coming. They are going to need a lot of REAL support and consideration. Will they get it? That's the question. Nev

 

 

[mnewbery]

Apart from paid leave in order to keep fighting fires, I'm not sure if anyone understands how to support the current and future FF efforts.

 

I was at the shops today. The local RFS had at least four people collecting $donations at every entrance plus more people inside. That might be a hint.

 

Also, in (the) Canberra (bubble) there are some pretty pointed messages written in fluoro paint on the FF appliances. That might be another hint.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Why?

 

No one out in the real world has said there's a problem with the responses.

 

A colossal claim. What is your "real world"?

 

Why hold an enquiry? Because we investigate every suspicious death, every accident, every crime, in the hope we can improve our response and avoid bad things happening again.

 

Surely you'd like to find out why this fire season is already worse than most and how we can better manage the next one?

 

 

[facthunter]

Is it right that they should have to beg for it? They also have lives to live and a home situation to maintain. Nev