derekliston Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Just looking at the MSN photos of thecrashed and burnt Citation that had the retired race driver and family on board and the fuselage seems to have some sort of mesh left after it has burnt. I just wonder what sort of structure the fuselage has, is it a carbo fibre composite? Apparently something flammable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Might be part of the perimeter fence the jet went through as it overrun the strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Alf is onto it. It's the chain-link mesh from the airport perimeter fence that is wrapped around the fuselage. There is a good photo in the news link below - blow the photo up with screen magnification, it's easy enough to see. https://kfgo.com/news/articles/2019/aug/15/earnhardt-jr-safe-after-plane-crash-in-tennessee/928066/?refer-section=localsports There's been a number of Citations that have crashed in recent months, what is it about them? Too high-tech for low-tech pilots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekliston Posted August 16, 2019 Author Share Posted August 16, 2019 Alf is onto it. It's the chain-link mesh from the airport perimeter fence that is wrapped around the fuselage. There is a good photo in the news link below - blow the photo up with screen magnification, it's easy enough to see. https://kfgo.com/news/articles/2019/aug/15/earnhardt-jr-safe-after-plane-crash-in-tennessee/928066/?refer-section=localsports There's been a number of Citations that have crashed in recent months, what is it about them? Too high-tech for low-tech pilots? Simple answer when I see that photograph. Thanks for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 The Citation has never been considered a "tricky" small jet to fly. Jet engines are easier to manage than Pistons or turbo props. They might need a bit more runway on average but that's all. The later high bypass ratio engined stuff less so. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 Well, I see one of the recent Citation crashes was the result of a drunk single pilot, who apparently wasn't fully qualified to fly it. Another Citation crash in Aug 2018, was suicide by the pilot, who flew into his own house after domestic assault charges were laid against him. As the Americans say, "You cain't fix stoopid". But there are several unexplained recent Citation crashes. Recent (2018/2019) Citation crashes - all fatals, except the one with the drunk pilot ... Crash reason - pilot incapacitation - https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190524-0 Crash by drunk pilot - https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190717-0 Crash reason unknown - https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190522-1 Crash by suicide - https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180813-0 Crash reason unknown - https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20181130-0 Crash reason - CFIT - https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180415-1 Crash reason unknown - crashed shortly after takeoff - https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20180415-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 Can't see anything there that would indicate some fault endemic with the plane. Unknown is just that, at this point.. It's been in service a long time now. Usually serious problems emerge much earlier. Anybody can buy and fly one. There's a lot of variables in how they can be operated and cared for. . Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 This was a big new citation latitude, 2 crew required. The runway is 1380m, shortish? With one pilot flying and one monitoring everything should be done correctly. Failure in one of the braking systems ? It will all be on the FDR and CVR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 Anybody can buy and fly one I think you've hit the nail right on the head there, and that applies to nearly all business jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 I think Grumman have the market. . Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Heard on the news that there were 2 pilots plus the Nascar driver and his family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 From AVWeb - "In a briefing held on Friday, NTSB senior investigator Ralph Hicks reported that the NTSB has acquired video footage of the accident from surveillance cameras on buildings around the airport. According to Hicks, the footage shows that the aircraft bounced at least twice before 'coming down hard on the right main landing gear,' which collapsed. The aircraft was equipped with a cockpit voice recorder, which has been recovered. Hicks says the winds were calm at the time of the accident. A preliminary report on the crash is expected in about a week." The briefing provided by Ralph Hicks below is very, very good. Ignore the first 1:20 mins of BS by the Mayor, and move onto Ralphs excellent clear and detailed speech. Then, at the end of the detailed information speech, at 4:40, watch Hicks reply carefully to sensible questions, give curt answers to dumb questions, and shut down the question time sharply at 9:05. There was a CVR in the Citation, but no FDR. However, Hicks states there are avionics in the Citation that they can glean flight info from. It's all going to hinge on what actually caused the hard landing. With calm wind conditions, the pilots are going to have trouble blaming the hard landing on windshear or a wind gust. The only other cause could be a mechanical or electronic failure, and I'm sure the NTSB will be looking at those areas pretty intensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Another citation in a runway over run. I wonder what the insurance premium is on a $15m aircraft ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Nice Silvare The first one seems simple, a bit long and fast on the landing, banged it down , it bounced, but instead of been ready to go around had another try, it bounced, then apparently tried go around and them slammed it down and broke the left gear. Naturally given a torched airframe it is easy to say it didn't respond to go around. But was that before or after he was sliding on the wing? Weather was no issue. The second citation? Should in theory had enough runway at V1 decision time. He might have left it too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 It will be interesting to find what the "control malfunction" was, that made the PIC decide to abort the takeoff. If he did a full flight controls check before commencing his takeoff, a control malfunction should not have happened? Sounds suspiciously to me, as if a full flight controls check wasn't undertaken, and at V1 he suddenly discovered a flight control limitation, caused by a control lock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 You might be right on track there?. Alas the control problem could have been the knob at the stick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 I was thinking they may have got "The yips" having heard of the other event only a few days before.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Your control check is for free and in correct sense. Some trims might be run but that doesn't prove everything. Often you are just wearing things out. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 The key question is why the aircraft failed to respond in the go-around attempt. They certainly weren't newbies, so you'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt on that, but why the thing bounced with such experienced pilots is also hard to explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Perhaps it wasn't clear who was flying it. That's happened before. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 That's one possibility, but doesn't explain both the bounce and the lack of engine response Nev. Crew with that level of experience would basically do the investigator's job for them unless they were trying to hide something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 It CAN explain both. It's possibly an"I thought you had it " situation. Depends on things like ownership and experience level or you can get the two check captains situation. Speculation anyhow but the best I can come up with, Those planes will skip a long way if the spoilers aren't deployed, and if there's a problem it's a go around at the first bounce, usually. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwell Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Yeah, I suppose it is possible. Speaking of this reminds me of a close call at Jabiru by a Citation years ago. I was working for Kak Air, and we happened to be on the ground while a pair of Citations joined the circuit for landing. They were carrying execs from Ranger Uranium mine, and if you've never been to Jabiru, it was basically a banana on it's edge, with the first half bitumen and slightly uphill, and the second half gravel and downhill. The first jet came in hot and didn't touch down until the end of the bitumen, then threw the thing into reverse thrust and barely stopped by the end of the strip. We found out later that was the new guy. Then, the Chief Pilot of the company touched down on the threshold and pulled it up by the end of the bitumen, taxiing off without touching the gravel. For the record, we had trouble doing that in C206, 207, and 210s. Generally, aircraft bounce because they're too hot on approach, and that is usually at the recommended approach speed too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 The only Citation "crash" I can recall in Oz, was a forced landing on a firebreak East of Kalgoorlie in 1983. The reason was fuel exhaustion due to poor flight planning, and poor oversight of refuelling. The word was at the time, there was a substantial number of underwear changes needed, due to the fact that the entire Board of North Broken Hill Pty Ltd was on-board. It was certainly more good luck, than good management, that everyone survived, mostly due to flat terrain, and low scrub. I'll wager the PIC got a right royal roasting immediately after everyone climbed out, and found the tanks as dry as the Sahara Desert. I guess his next job was one commensurate with his abilities - "Do you want fries with that?" https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19831205-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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