RA-Aus Don't Know How to Do "Occurrence Management

[Yenn]

I don't think RAAus collating and working out what happened would work, that is going on it's past performance. I reckon they would stuff up the info and we would have even less of a chance of learning anything.

[Kyle Communications]

Ycab is non controlled and has big glider ops for at least 3 days a week Fri,Sat and Sundays. The tug and the gliders always stick to the grass on the non use side of the runway. On Rway 12 now Rwy 11 they are always on the northern of the bitumin on the grass and everyone else will use the bitumin but mainly the grass on the southern side of this runway side. The tug pilots are very experienced there and we do not get any reports about their operations. They are very experienced and regularly will be flying in to their side of the runway while you are coming in on the other side of the runway. The tug always does a short inbound circuit. Everyone who trains at or knows Ycab knows this. I have been flying there since 2010 and never had a incident with a glider or the tug but I have also landed many many times with the tug on my left. I usually taylor my approach to make sure the tug is in front. Your "incident" most likely was pretty much due to your inexperience flying the aircraft and also flying at a airfield that has many ops and also different type of aircraft. I would be very confident that the tug pilot knew exactly where you were. Ycab has warbirds, gliders, RAA ,VH and VH Experimental also first world war and many other types. Living with all of these different aircraft can be difficult and it really is just experience. Ycab back then there was NO requirement for radio in the aircraft. This has now changed and Ycab is a radio mandatory airfield. Cosider yourself lucky as well because back then when I started we had meatbombers there as well..they finally got rid of them out of there

 

 

[Ironpot]

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2022/10/or-forever-hold-your-peace/#respond

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 19/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Kyle Communications said:

Ycab is non controlled and has big glider ops for at least 3 days a week Fri,Sat and Sundays. The tug and the gliders always stick to the grass on the non use side of the runway. On Rway 12 now Rwy 11 they are always on the northern of the bitumin on the grass and everyone else will use the bitumin but mainly the grass on the southern side of this runway side. The tug pilots are very experienced there and we do not get any reports about their operations. They are very experienced and regularly will be flying in to their side of the runway while you are coming in on the other side of the runway. The tug always does a short inbound circuit. Everyone who trains at or knows Ycab knows this. I have been flying there since 2010 and never had a incident with a glider or the tug but I have also landed many many times with the tug on my left. I usually taylor my approach to make sure the tug is in front. Your "incident" most likely was pretty much due to your inexperience flying the aircraft and also flying at a airfield that has many ops and also different type of aircraft. I would be very confident that the tug pilot knew exactly where you were. Ycab has warbirds, gliders, RAA ,VH and VH Experimental also first world war and many other types. Living with all of these different aircraft can be difficult and it really is just experience. Ycab back then there was NO requirement for radio in the aircraft. This has now changed and Ycab is a radio mandatory airfield. Cosider yourself lucky as well because back then when I started we had meatbombers there as well..they finally got rid of them out of there

 

 

There is no such thing as inexperience causing an “incident”. There is such a thing as inexperience causing something else that causes and incident or “incident”. If the tug pilot knew where I was and was so competent, how did he end up on my right side and then above me? Why didn’t he just stay away? And why didn’t he use his radio? 

[APenNameAndThatA]

Just now, APenNameAndThatA said:

There is no such thing as inexperience causing an “incident”. There is such a thing as inexperience causing something else that causes and incident or “incident”. If the tug pilot knew where I was and was so competent, how did he end up on my right side and then above me, when I was already in the circuit? Why didn’t he just stay away? And why didn’t he use his radio? 

 

[Ironpot]

On 19/7/2022 at 5:45 PM, Kyle Communications said:

Ycab is non controlled and has big glider ops for at least 3 days a week Fri,Sat and Sundays. The tug and the gliders always stick to the grass on the non use side of the runway. On Rway 12 now Rwy 11 they are always on the northern of the bitumin on the grass and everyone else will use the bitumin but mainly the grass on the southern side of this runway side. The tug pilots are very experienced there and we do not get any reports about their operations. They are very experienced and regularly will be flying in to their side of the runway while you are coming in on the other side of the runway. The tug always does a short inbound circuit. Everyone who trains at or knows Ycab knows this. I have been flying there since 2010 and never had a incident with a glider or the tug but I have also landed many many times with the tug on my left. I usually taylor my approach to make sure the tug is in front. Your "incident" most likely was pretty much due to your inexperience flying the aircraft and also flying at a airfield that has many ops and also different type of aircraft. I would be very confident that the tug pilot knew exactly where you were. Ycab has warbirds, gliders, RAA ,VH and VH Experimental also first world war and many other types. Living with all of these different aircraft can be difficult and it really is just experience. Ycab back then there was NO requirement for radio in the aircraft. This has now changed and Ycab is a radio mandatory airfield. Cosider yourself lucky as well because back then when I started we had meatbombers there as well..they finally got rid of them out of there

 

 

Yep I agree, YCAB is an accident waiting to happen. 
 

Heli ops inside the active RWS twists my melon! So unnecessary 

[Kyle Communications]

On 07/10/2022 at 11:04 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

 

He was probably using his experience to avoid you..just saying. We never get reports about tug pilots ops but plenty of reports on normal pilots and aircraft ops or should I say inops. Airmanship is lacking now days and its very visible. I think this all goes back to the training given now. Its not like it used to be when I started flying back in the mid 1980's. Airmanship was a big part of training. It now seems to be lost. Maybe I might be a old fuddy duddy but there are plenty of people that go and watch the comedy on the boat ramp scenario on sunday mornings. One of the issues is the airfield is now so busy but that still does not exemplify the situation. Students and low time pilots need to be more aware of what they are doing and to me it just doesnt seem to be happening. I am no expert by any means but when I fly I try to make sure I know where everyone is in the circuit by eye and radio. I have had to take exvasive action a few times simply from other pilots not looking or listening.

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

He was probably using his experience to avoid you..just saying. We never get reports about tug pilots ops but plenty of reports on normal pilots and aircraft ops or should I say inops. Airmanship is lacking now days and its very visible. I think this all goes back to the training given now. Its not like it used to be when I started flying back in the mid 1980's. Airmanship was a big part of training. It now seems to be lost. Maybe I might be a old fuddy duddy but there are plenty of people that go and watch the comedy on the boat ramp scenario on sunday mornings. One of the issues is the airfield is now so busy but that still does not exemplify the situation. Students and low time pilots need to be more aware of what they are doing and to me it just doesnt seem to be happening. I am no expert by any means but when I fly I try to make sure I know where everyone is in the circuit by eye and radio. I have had to take exvasive action a few times simply from other pilots not looking or listening.

Caboolture was blasted about ten years ago on this site by Qerty, an exerienced pilot who flew in on a leg of a holday trip and found aircraft all over the place in the circuit, sub standard radio, gliders actually parked on the strip ALA working on them, with no attempt to move them, and radio standards that were not up to scratch.

 

Caboolture has a fairly high ATSB accident score for its size:

22/3/14   Cessna U206G

30/3/12   Europa XS

19/3/02   Bell Helicopter

7/1/97     Smythe Sidewinder

20/12/88 Thruster T500 (10 km away)

7/2/88     Avenger Ultralight

15/2/86   Winton Jackaroo (8 km away)

9/1/86     PA28-161

 

Its details say it is owned by the Queensland Government.

 

You can't just say RAA don't know what they are doing because it's clear that GFA, RAA and GA are all operating out of the same field.

In the prescriptive legal period, the predecessors to CASA would have brought in a team and steadily fined the offenders until the airfield returned to safe operating standards.

In the post prescriptive era where people are responsible for their own actions, like they always wanted, Airservices Australia are not responsible if the radio standards are poor, the airport owner, airport management structure, instructors and pilots are.

I will only take one accident, a lot of people who can no longer afford to fly to see a very quick improvement.

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by turboplanner

[Kyle Communications]

Caboolture was blasted about ten years ago on this site by Qerty, an exerienced pilot who flew in on a leg of a holday trip and found aircraft all over the place in the circuit, sub standard radio, gliders actually parked on the strip ALA working on them, with no attempt to move them, and radio standards that were not up to scratch.

 

Well not strictly correct or accurate.

Radio??.. YCAB has only just been made mandatory about 18 months ago

Gliders on the strip?..just doesnt happen.  Infact glider ops are actually made OUTSIDE the full runway side markers and never take place anywhere else and its been that way for the 12 years I have operated at Ycab

The issue at Ycab is just too many aircraft ops of all different types.

The Ops manual is currently being rewitten and almost finished

YCAB and YCDR are on the same frequency as so was Redcliffe back then. Redcliffe got a freq change about 8 years or so ago but that creates problems because they forget to change frequencies when they traverse our airspace which is close to theirs on the way up the coast or over to Moreton Island.

YCDR runways were the same numbers as ours 12/30..we tried to get a frequency change but CASA and ASA told us no. So we changed the runway headings to 11/29 as the confusion beytween operating areas was terrible. You would hear a aircraft call the runway but it was at YCDR not YCAB..now its reasonable but hetrodynes are still massive as Caloundra is reasonably busy as well now. YCDR is only about 15nm from YCAB

Pretty much all of those accidents were pilot error and most were very experienced pilots inc one that had 15000 hrs plus. It had nothing to do with ops at YCAB..... all pilot error or mechanical failure so you dont get to play that card Turbo

[old man emu]

Strewth! You are frightening me in relation to handling air movements at this event I'm planning for all comers. 

 

Will I have to include in the entry conditions that failure to make proper radios calls at the correct time will result in disqualification and an interview with Head of Security?

 

 

Seriously, should I be concerned about poor airmanship as it is something that I cannot control, only advise against.

 

[Kyle Communications]

On 07/10/2022 at 11:04 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

 

All I can say is I am now seeing far more poor airmanship on airfields now. It wasnt like that 10 years ago. I am pretty sure it just isnt associated with my home airfield

 

[turboplanner]

59 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Seriously, should I be concerned about poor airmanship as it is something that I cannot control, only advise against.

 

I gave you a pointer a few days ago; the insurer would be able to give you good basic knowledge on what you will be respnsible for; that's all you have to worry about.

[APenNameAndThatA]

12 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

He was probably using his experience to avoid you..just saying. We never get reports about tug pilots ops but plenty of reports on normal pilots and aircraft ops or should I say inops. Airmanship is lacking now days and its very visible. I think this all goes back to the training given now. Its not like it used to be when I started flying back in the mid 1980's. Airmanship was a big part of training. It now seems to be lost. Maybe I might be a old fuddy duddy but there are plenty of people that go and watch the comedy on the boat ramp scenario on sunday mornings. One of the issues is the airfield is now so busy but that still does not exemplify the situation. Students and low time pilots need to be more aware of what they are doing and to me it just doesnt seem to be happening. I am no expert by any means but when I fly I try to make sure I know where everyone is in the circuit by eye and radio. I have had to take exvasive action a few times simply from other pilots not looking or listening.

I was the one in the circuit, so I had right of way. He came up beside me in a faster aircraft. Again, there is no such thing as using his experience to avoid me. There is such a thing as him using his experience to do something to avoid me. Can you please suggest what it might have been? I was already in the circuit, at the right height, flying in the correct direction, so what was he doing beside me, then above me? Hmm? Furthermore, what exactly do you mean you never get any reports about tug pilots? If you were there in 2018 or 2019, you would have got the report. Did you get the report or not? 

[Kyle Communications]

Well everyone who flys at Ycab flys with the gliders as they stay out of the way of aircraft flying the main circuit pattern. They fly a different pattern. I have been flying there since 2010 and I have only been on the committee since xmas 2019 so I can tell you since then there is not one report about any tug operations. Considering they fly a lot of ops 3 days a week and in the busy times like fri,sat and sundays also changing ends and runways when the wind changes. This may tell you something

I can only tell you what I see and what is reported. I have my own opinions on the subject and it was a major discussion about airmanship at the last meeting in fact and what we can do to try to get things back on track.

 

[jackc]

Well maybe it’s time to run a airmanship seminar in a few places and help get people up to speed. One of our CDFG members hosted a Flight Planning one a couple of weekends ago along with a bush luncheon that was very social. Another instructor brought along the latest VFRG books for sale along with other CASA. publications.  A great training day and social as well.

I got a lot out of it and we had about 15 or so attendees.  Maybe there needs to be more days like this? 

[Kyle Communications]

I will take that to the next meeting..its a good idea

 

[Ian]

21 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

YCAB and YCDR are on the same frequency as so was Redcliffe back then. Redcliffe got a freq change about 8 years or so ago but that creates problems because they forget to change frequencies when they traverse our airspace which is close to theirs on the way up the coast or over to Moreton Island.

YCDR runways were the same numbers as ours 12/30..we tried to get a frequency change but CASA and ASA told us no.

What is CASA's/Airservices resistance to allocating different frequencies for nearby airstrips? I've noticed that airports in reasonable proximity, using the same frequencies, often with similar sounding location names and with similar orientations can lead to those flying in the location ignoring "noise" from arriving aircraft.

It just appears to be a bit backwards, especially when the solution which reasonably presents itself is to allocate discrete channels. The whole concept that it will cause more issues isn't really valid as there are different frequencies allocated already.

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

11 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

Well everyone who flys at Ycab flys with the gliders as they stay out of the way of aircraft flying the main circuit pattern. They fly a different pattern. I have been flying there since 2010 and I have only been on the committee since xmas 2019 so I can tell you since then there is not one report about any tug operations. Considering they fly a lot of ops 3 days a week and in the busy times like fri,sat and sundays also changing ends and runways when the wind changes. This may tell you something

I can only tell you what I see and what is reported. I have my own opinions on the subject and it was a major discussion about airmanship at the last meeting in fact and what we can do to try to get things back on track.

 

Oh. So you do get reports about tugs. I thought you thought you didn't get any. And, can you answer my question? If the tug operator was so experienced, how did he end up beside me when I was already in the circuit?

[APenNameAndThatA]

2 hours ago, jackc said:

Well maybe it’s time to run a airmanship seminar in a few places and help get people up to speed. One of our CDFG members hosted a Flight Planning one a couple of weekends ago along with a bush luncheon that was very social. Another instructor brought along the latest VFRG books for sale along with other CASA. publications.  A great training day and social as well.

I got a lot out of it and we had about 15 or so attendees.  Maybe there needs to be more days like this? 

I'm ashamed of myself for not realising this. If the airmanship at Cabulture is so s—, maybe that's the fault of... Caboolture? Who knew? (I'm not suggesting the jackc shares my views about this matter, just to be clear.) 

Edited October 9, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[Blueadventures]

2 hours ago, Ian said:

What is CASA's/Airservices resistance to allocating different frequencies for nearby airstrips? I've noticed that airports in reasonable proximity, using the same frequencies, often with similar sounding location names and with similar orientations can lead to those flying in the location ignoring "noise" from arriving aircraft.

It just appears to be a bit backwards, especially when the solution which reasonably presents itself is to allocate discrete channels. The whole concept that it will cause more issues isn't really valid as there are different frequencies allocated already.

 

With airfields near to each other the same freq is good as when on 10, 5 miles etc you would be transiting their area at times.  A good addition in areas like Caloundra and Caboolture might be to add the respective airfield after the direction being said (eg 11 Caboolture  instead of 11  where you say it in the transmission) this would add to the two Airfield advices at the start and end of transmissions that are sometimes missed.

[turboplanner]

12 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

With airfields near to each other the same freq is good as when on 10, 5 miles etc you would be transiting their area at times.  A good addition in areas like Caloundra and Caboolture might be to add the respective airfield after the direction being said (eg 11 Caboolture  instead of 11  where you say it in the transmission) this would add to the two Airfield advices at the start and end of transmissions that are sometimes missed.

That would be covered in “Caboolture Traffic” with a big focus in the area on getting radio terminology compliance.

 

 

[facthunter]

TWO aerodromes close together would avoid tracking in each other's circuit I would have thought. It would be fraught with danger without positive control and issued clearances. .Nev

[RossK]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

TWO aerodromes close together would avoid tracking in each other's circuit I would have thought. 

You would hope so.

Lilydale and Coldstream are only 5km apart.

Lilydale operate at std 1000ft AGL = 1250 AMSL with all circuits to the west

Coldstream operate at 1250ft AGL = 1500ft AMSL with all circuits to the east.

Both operate on the same CTAF.

 

[facthunter]

Penfield and Riddells creek similarly in the past even with no radio. You just kept a good eye out and your circuit length.. Passing through traffic was a bigger problem at Penfield  and you were also constrained by the CTA overlay for Tullamarine.  Nev

[Blueadventures]

37 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

That would be covered in “Caboolture Traffic” with a big focus in the area on getting radio terminology compliance.

 

 

Agree; however, I believe that adding one word ( the respective airfield your are in circuit for) would enhance safety and add to airmanship.  I would do it.  Just my comment for consideration.  I have flown both Blanik gliders and a Gazelle at Caboolture in the past.  It's a growing airfield and I am all for safety improvement where identified.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Blueadventures