facthunter Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 I'm referring to specific REOORDED in the stats, fires post crash Certainly NOT inferring THIS applies in flight but post crash burning is apparently more common with the SRs than other planes surveyed by a significant amount.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 ATSB have one eye witness who sighted the aircraft at low altitude and heading towards the ground, and no smoke or fire was mentioned by that witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattP Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Note also that article posted was pre the cirrus owners and pilots association focus on caps training. Post that move they've claimed no fatalities from in envelope caps deployment. Issue was an attitude one of the customers a) thinking the chute was magic and a cure for poor skill / decision making and b) not wanting to use it. Once they trained it out the stat's improved to the point where it's got a great record now. Also why most places want you to have the csip certificate- ie have done their training. At the end of the day the 20 and 22 are just ga aircraft, one is relatively underpowered for its size but as per rf's post pretty good economically once it's going. The other is a fast x country tourer with the same caution needed as other big six powered singles. There's really no special / secret thing that makes them worse or better just different. I also find most people making the comments on them have never flown one. Tbh the 20 is a lot like the archer except everything is 15 kts faster. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Given that the post-impact fire was intense, the results of the post mortem on the pilot might not indicate a medical cause. If all the bits of the plane can be found within the wreckage, then pilot incapacitation seems to be a logical conclusion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 that's my guess, also. Plane bound for Armidale from Canberra would have been full of fuel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Doesn't need a lot of fuel to make a "concerning" fire. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 I think you said this before Nev. A cup of petrol with the right oxygen mix is enough to blow your house up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 That's IF it's vapourised KG and it will explode. Many aircraft fires are just post crash from a few drips initially and oil will ignite well on a hot exhaust . Being injured and unable to get out would be the worst thing . Float carburettor's will always vent fuel inverted. It is best to isolate the electrics if you have the time before you pile up.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Marvel Schebler updraft carbs as fitted to Lycoming and Continental aircraft engines vent the carb bowl directly into the carb throat. No fuel is spilled if inverted unless the fuel lines are disrupted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 In this case that is not relevant anyway as the engine has fuel injection 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 You wouldn't keep the throttle open inverted unless with a special motor built for it in which case the bowl fuel would still run out. A Chipmunk has fuel run all over the windscreen when you go negative G. Most carbs vent internally. They then don't suck unfiltered air in or have a mixture change when the vent tube is in the wrong place. Any decent modern Aero engine should be injected multi point. Let's face it. you'd avoid a lot of problems. Icing and backfiring damage and no uneven mixtures therefore better fuel economy Nev 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Look at the photo of the wreckage in this report : Four people believed dead from fatal light aircraft crash outside Gundaroo, north of Canberra - ABC News WWW.ABC.NET.AU Emergency services are investigating a fatal light aircraft crash at Gundaroo yesterday, after it took off from Canberra Airport. Police say they believe a man and three children were on board. The indicated to me that the aircraft hit the ground with only vertical motion, no forward motion. Isn't it likely that such a vertical impact would rupture the fuel tanks, causing fuel to leak under the inner wings and fuselage. What the source of ignition was is hard to determine, but my opinion is that it was the hot exhaust pipe, because the battery is likely to have also been ruptured by the vertical impact force. My opinion depends on the location of the wing tanks, exhaust pipe and battery. I don't know where these things are located in that aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattP Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 There’s 2, one on the firewall, one in the tail. tanks are integral to the wing. Exhaust is pretty standard, out the bottom. It’s tightly cowled and baffled. not sure exactly on the older g1 sr22 re the wing tank structure as they changed the wing g2 and up, different spar I think and made the wing so it was removable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted December 15, 2023 Author Share Posted December 15, 2023 Transport safety bureau releases initial findings about plane crash that killed pilot and his three grandchildren at Gundaroo - ABC News WWW.ABC.NET.AU Investigators suggest a devastating light plane crash occurred after the aircraft went into a spin and lost engine power. Four members of the... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdun Posted December 15, 2023 Share Posted December 15, 2023 (edited) In cloud from 5000’ to 8000’ and freezing level 5000’. Aircraft climbing but slowing down (AP on vertical climb??); and descent started at 70kts ground speed. Stall speed (clean) 69kts. The optional de-icing modifications to the aircraft were not done. So who suggested icing? https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2023/report/ao-2023-045 Edited December 15, 2023 by Markdun Hit the send button to quickly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 I've experienced a lot of icing events near and in that area and it's quite likely a factor. Ice can push your weight, stall speed and drag way up in no time. It can be very rapid if you get supercooled raindrops. It will also affect the prop efficiency and balance and you may not have any vision through the windscreen, either.. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 It just makes one wonder why a pilot of a light aircraft with no anti-icing equipment, would fly through a zone where he would've been advised in the weather advisory, that there were icing conditions likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 I guess they don't get the seriousness of Icing. The one instance that nearly killed me the forecast said prominently "NIL ICING" With the others I was able to go lower and did QUICKLY. but you ned to be visual to do that mostly In a Jet you just bleed heat off the engines and use more fuel till you get where it's too cold to get ice. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 (edited) I have already made my conclusion. And it is harsh ! Pilot became unconscious. Passengers were not sufficiently briefed on activating the CAPS system (shutdown engine, activate CAPS). Should have been with so many souls on board. It is a terrible ending to a what should have been survivable situation. Pilot only accumulated 800 hours in 38 years which for me is a question mark. For whatever reason he failed to provide duty of care to that family through his own errors. Edited December 16, 2023 by RFguy 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 Icing conditions were present. That IS established. That in itself is a high stress situation for any pilot. No plane like that has adequate anti or deicing equipment. The slightest frosting of the windscreen will make it opaque. The Pitot without heat will fail soon enough too. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy320 Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 Also the Cirus is not certified for flight into know icing conditions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdun Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 The ATSB report is silent on whether the pilot has done the training on the use of the parachute. Recalling the history of US death rates in this type of aircraft were nearly double because pilots didn’t deploy the chute and this was substantially reduced by training. So rather than pilot incapacitation, it may have been a reluctance to deploy the chute and the belief (like most of us) that our training on spin recovery will enable us to recover from a spin ie. centre controls, full opposite rudder, pull throttle, check fwd on elevator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 As i understand it the Cirrus is not certified for spinning and had to be fitted with a ballistic chute to attain certification. It isn't an optional extra. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 Few people have done spin training these days full stop, let alone have real spin competence. I do think that possibility is pretty unlikely. Putting the recovery as simple as you do there doesn't consider the reality that many planes don't recover the same way and you should be fluent in HOW the particular plane you are flying would recover IF at all.. The chute is MANDATORY for a reason. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted December 16, 2023 Share Posted December 16, 2023 5 hours ago, RFguy said: I have already made my conclusion. And it is harsh ! Pilot became unconscious. Passengers were not sufficiently briefed on activating the CAPS system (shutdown engine, activate CAPS). Should have been with so many souls on board. It is a terrible ending to a what should have been survivable situation. Pilot only accumulated 800 hours in 38 years which for me is a question mark. For whatever reason he failed to provide duty of care to that family through his own errors. I have only accumulated about 800 hours in 40 years. House to pay off, UNI/TAFE fees to pay off, and whores must have their trinkets. Oh, and owning a plane and hangar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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