skippydiesel Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Just wondered if anyone else thinks the following RAA charges are a tad odd? Initial Aircraft Registration Aircraft with one seat $215.00 Aircraft with two seat $349.00 Aircraft Renewal Aircraft with one seat $150.00 Aircraft with two seat $235.00 Aircraft Transfers .... single seat $155.00 .....two seat $280.00 I find it unlikly that the administration, of the above services, requires any difference in resources, between single & two seat, to discharge. It is evident that the same service, can be delivered for a lower cost, this should be the charge to the RAA pilot members. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 This is a no brainer... just take out the passenger seat before registration or transfer... 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷♀️ 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 If paying by seating. will standing only , get free rego . ( seatless aircraft ) . spacesailor ) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 It must be the insurance. No passenger no risk. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 No seats : pilot stays on the ground to fly their drone . LoL spacesailor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 13 Author Share Posted February 13 15 hours ago, Thruster88 said: It must be the insurance. No passenger no risk. This just might apply to annual Registration renewal. In practise the vast majority of flights are pilot only, even for 2 seats (and in GA above 2 seats) Insurance is not a factor in aircraft Initial Registration or Transfers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, skippydiesel said: This just might apply to annual Registration renewal. In practise the vast majority of flights are pilot only, even for 2 seats (and in GA above 2 seats) Insurance is not a factor in aircraft Initial Registration or Transfers. Maybe the actual process costing is what two seaters pay and they give some cost relief for the single seat owners as they can't afford a second seater🤪😇 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I checked our single seat vs our two seat. In 2007 (chosen at random); the single seat was $55 and two seat $110. RAAus came in for some stick about supposedly not supporting the lower end of ultralight flying and it was decided to to keep the 95-10s at half price (which it isn't now). They have just about died out anyway. There are costs involved in initial registration, probably more so for a 95-10 self design vs a bog standard factory built which comes with its own dataset W&B etc. There would be admin required in setting up a new file, allocating rego, posting, emailing. I guess Initial Rego includes the first year. So $65 doesn't represent much admin, printing, filing etc, probably an hour and a half admin for a single seater. It is possible that two seat factory built are subsidising the 95-10s RAAus does a fair bit for aircraft - the obvious admin, oversight of issues - maintenance, training, advice, Tech Manuals, safety, magazine articles etc. It will never be fair depending on what you fly; and how you fly it. If you don't fly much, should you get a rebate on the rego? Should each aircraft pay what it really costs (standard factory build vs complex home build)? Can you have half price if you promise not to use the second seat? Should 2 strokes pay half 4 stroke? Could go on and on.... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 strokes pay half of a 4 stroke. That's funny.. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 14 minutes ago, facthunter said: 2 strokes pay half of a 4 stroke. That's funny.. Nev It was seriously suggested to me! Qld car Rego goes on the number of cylinders .... 🙂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I better not build a Fokker Triplane replica. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The sale of wankels should go through the roof.. What a fool idea based on the number of cylinders too.. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 36 minutes ago, FlyingVizsla said: It was seriously suggested to me! Qld car Rego goes on the number of cylinders .... 🙂 It does 4,6,8 and Ford Rangers with the 5cyl pay as a 6 for rego. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Qld Transport fees for car rego - Yes, they have Bands eg "Vehicle 1, 2 or 3 cylinders, electric or steam", 5-6, 7-8, 9 to 12 cylinders. There's a Seniors Card concession too. So how about "Pensioner Special" for single seaters? Registration costs WWW.QLD.GOV.AU Get an online free registration quote for your vehicle, motorcycle, light truck or boat in Queensland. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Does it take note of being supercharged? OR engine capacity (Displacement).? That's as silly as the scheme the brits had that went on Piston area and produced a whole lot of Ring wearing long stroke motors. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 What in heavens name has the emphasis on the number of cylinders got to do with anything? What bl@@dy Genius proposed THAT? Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 2 hours ago, FlyingVizsla said: I checked our single seat vs our two seat. In 2007 (chosen at random); the single seat was $55 and two seat $110. RAAus came in for some stick about supposedly not supporting the lower end of ultralight flying and it was decided to to keep the 95-10s at half price (which it isn't now). They have just about died out anyway. There are costs involved in initial registration, probably more so for a 95-10 self design vs a bog standard factory built which comes with its own dataset W&B etc. There would be admin required in setting up a new file, allocating rego, posting, emailing. I guess Initial Rego includes the first year. So $65 doesn't represent much admin, printing, filing etc, probably an hour and a half admin for a single seater. It is possible that two seat factory built are subsidising the 95-10s RAAus does a fair bit for aircraft - the obvious admin, oversight of issues - maintenance, training, advice, Tech Manuals, safety, magazine articles etc. It will never be fair depending on what you fly; and how you fly it. If you don't fly much, should you get a rebate on the rego? Should each aircraft pay what it really costs (standard factory build vs complex home build)? Can you have half price if you promise not to use the second seat? Should 2 strokes pay half 4 stroke? Could go on and on.... I am not complaining about the cost as such, just the fact that it differs for one & two seat aircraft. RAA as advised this is due to differences in insurance premium. This may be true, however Registration itself has no risk attached - its an administrative action, most often conducted once in the aircraft service life. The cost of this work would have to be the same for 1 to 100 seater. RAA muddies the waters, by including the first years Renewal, which does have an insurance component. If the Annual Renewal is deducted from the Initial Registration - two seat owners are paying X 3.3 times single seat owner's - fair???? Then there is Aircraft Transfers, from other registration authorities, that attracts a one & two set fee - again this purely an admin function that should be the same whatever the aircraft capacity. If we look at Annual Renewal, which certainly has an insurance component it may be worth considering how many hours, as a percentage, are flown with two persons on board. I would guess may be 5-10%. As the value of the airframe/hull insurance, is not part of this, it comes down to the number of PAX on board- in this, two seaters and single seaters are almost the same. If this is correct - why then do single seaters enjoy a substantially lower premium??? The rest of your statement eg fewer flight hours/attracting lower fees while equitable is pretty much a "red herring" as it would be extremely difficult to verify flight hours and what if you were to exceed, your insured quota?? I have only been in RAA for about the last 10-15 years so do not know it when it was more of Club - it's now a business. As such customer/member perceptions regarding things like cross funding/subsidising etc must be conducted with extreme caution and transparency, assuming that this actually happens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 14 Author Share Posted February 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Blueadventures said: It does 4,6,8 and Ford Rangers with the 5cyl pay as a 6 for rego. Ooooh! That doesn't seem fair (Ranger owner) If it was as for 4 cylinders, that would be okay😁 Lots of other 5 cylinders out there - Hino, Mercedes, VW, Volvo ----- any more? Edited February 14 by skippydiesel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Will Boeing be taking over RaAus? ☹️ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The insurance is part of the Pilot Membership, not the aircraft. You need to log in to see it - here's the link - go to Pilots - Insurance. https://members.raa.asn.au/pilots/insurance/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 50 minutes ago, skippydiesel said: Ooooh! That doesn't seem fair (Ranger owner) If it was as for 4 cylinders, that would be okay😁 Lots of other 5 cylinders out there - Hino, Mercedes, VW, Volvo ----- any more? Rounding up 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 On 14/02/2024 at 6:46 PM, FlyingVizsla said: The insurance is part of the Pilot Membership, not the aircraft. You need to log in to see it - here's the link - go to Pilots - Insurance. https://members.raa.asn.au/pilots/insurance/ I suggest you check out the Schedule of Fees https://raaus.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/schedule-of-fees-and-charges-5.pdf RAA Aircraft registration is not the same as RAA membership - You can be a RAA member without owning an aircraft. You can not own an RAA registered aircraft, without being a member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, skippydiesel said: RAA Aircraft registration is not the same as RAA membership - You can be a RAA member without owning an aircraft. You can not own an RAA registered aircraft, without being a member Actually you CAN own a plane and not be a member - I know two. I did ask RAAus regarding a non-member purchase and there is no requirement for an aircraft owner to be a pilot or member, there are some investors who own planes which they hire to schools or own so younger members can fly and some who no longer can fly due to health etc. That Schedule of Fees pie chart covers ALL fees paid. 17% is insurance, which I suspect is pilot, building & contents, Public Liability etc. If you log in as a member and then go to Pilots -> Insurance https://members.raa.asn.au/pilots/insurance/ you will see insurance is part of the Pilot fee (spread over 10,000+) rather than the aircraft (spread over 3,000+ planes). It says A cornerstone of protection for members is our unique Members Liability Insurance Policy which provides liability protection for those members of Recreational Aviation Australia Limited who hold a Student Pilot or Pilot Certificate. The cover, being applicable to the member (not the aircraft), means that the cover is “portable” even when piloting a RAAus registered aircraft owned by some other person anywhere in Australia. ------- The fee for a non-flying member $129, is lower than a Pilot $325 as it does not have the insurance component. Non-flying still gets the magazine, voting, training and similar benefits. Non-flying is a bit of a misnomer as some are active in other types of aviation, just not ultralights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Its great you can live in a country (Oz) - own a 12 cylinder car and get a pensioners rebate on the E-type jag (if that is true) - means you can still throw the lawnmower in the back and go out and earn some pocket money On 14/02/2024 at 4:51 PM, FlyingVizsla said: Qld Transport fees for car rego - Yes, they have Bands eg "Vehicle 1, 2 or 3 cylinders, electric or steam", 5-6, 7-8, 9 to 12 cylinders. There's a Seniors Card concession too. So how about "Pensioner Special" for single seaters? Registration costs WWW.QLD.GOV.AU Get an online free registration quote for your vehicle, motorcycle, light truck or boat in Queensland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 (edited) "Actually you CAN own a plane and not be a member - I know two." I stand corrected. However I find it strange that a non member can own a RAA registered aircraft - how is a non members application to register/renew/transfer an aircraft processed? I have been informed by RAA "While it may appear that the fee difference is solely attributed to administrative costs, I want to highlight that the fee for two-seater aircraft also encompasses insurance coverage for passenger liability. This additional coverage contributes to the overall cost difference between single-seat and two-seat registrations." Note: My comments refer to RAA Aircraft Registration not Membership. Edited February 15 by skippydiesel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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