BLA82 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 [quote=skydog;105194perhaps we need to give the JAB peole more time to perfect it. lookout! I thought after 15years they should be nearly there:loopy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Evolution in design cost big bucks and can often only be achieved over many years, you do not nessessarily retool every time you have an issue. We are the testing ground long term and the every day wear and tear we subject them to is the real test, the better they get the harder people will press the envelope. Watto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 My two bobs worth is having flown over 50 hours in Jabs as pilot both early and late models, also J160s and 230`s I have not had a hint of an engine failure but am all too aware of the failures out there and that is a bit of a bogey sitting on the shoulder of any pilot learning or buying.The value for money can not be argued with and they are evolving. The very early cessnas (I have learnt recently) such as 140`s ETC were dogs to fly and land with design imperfections in empanagge etc so perhaps we need to give the JAB peole more time to perfect it. The 120 from all accounts is the best design yet from all accounts but I have not flown it ...yet! Flap controls and throttles that require you to be a contortionist have never made sense to me and getting rid of them has been a sign of hope, they say coformity is the greatest freeedom and perhaps the changes are widening the appeal especially the J230, it is an excellent plane and much easier to land and handle than the smaller, lighter early aircraft that are prone to drifting crosswind on final and landings if you were not on the ball. That why they make you a better pilot than learning in other RA and GA planes. The finish and accessories and instruments have always been on the cheap and unreliable side breaking down regularly in my experience ,,never ending flat tyres, poor radios etc doesnt help their cause. They are a good looking plane though dont you think? Personally I like something a bit heavier, faster and bigger and with a regular proven aircraft engine but there will always be a market for cheap items. Put a 120 horse lycoming or continental in the J230 and you will have a pretty good plane. Add some decent foot brakes and well,...... lookout! Aw, come on SKYDOG.......anyway, I took the bait. Lets see, now. Have I got this right. Heavy planes dont drift in a crosswind...but light (er) Jabirus do. Hmm. Must warn my students about that one. So the Cessna 140 is a dog, eh. At least it will come out of a spin. Skycatcher. Oops, did I say that. Maybe you could e-mail Cessna and tell them that if they make the tail feathers a bit bigger and point the fin up (kinda like a 140) it might work better and use less hangar space. Decent foot brakes....so that....your mechanic can put his back out trying to service the master cylinders.... And what is going on with Rod Stiff? What was he thinking when he chose to deny us the all american REGULAR PROVEN aero engine that we all long to sit behind. God damn it. Why didn't he just make us a Cessna.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 CREZZI has obviosly kept up to date with the latest Rotax Service bullitens, but it doesn't sound like the rest of you have. Specifically SI 912 016 R1 (April 07 2008), Pot calling kettle...over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacmiles Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 As the owner of a 120 i think they fly great, real value for money, and a motor with plenty of power for this particular plane. So here's the problem, are they really as cheap as everyone thinks they are [im talking about all models here] considering the fact that most of these engines are buggered by 500-600 hrs [if your lucky].I know some people will come back with 'oh but my engines done 1600 hrs and running great' but i think this would be very rare. We recently pulled down a 230 3300 engine, valves burnt out, barrells out of round at 370 hrs. All services done correctly, run on av-gas for life of motor, so what the hell is going on with these things. I really hope my 2200 motor gives me a better run than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 barrells out of round at 370 hrs. That sounds like it's getting to hot! to do that. As for valves burning out, it just sounds like it needs a bigger valve clearance. What it's sounds like it's doing is, it's heating up, valve clearance closes up, and yeah, you can see where it's heading.... ridding valves, valves aren't closing up enough, and so they then just burn out.... Just for interest sake has anyone checked there valve clearance when your engines hot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLA82 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 We recently pulled down a 230 3300 engine, valves burnt out, barrells out of round at 370 hrs. All services done correctly, run on av-gas for life of motor, so what the hell is going on with these things.. If this is the so called progress out of 15years the 2045 model Jabiru should nearly be right:loopy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 We recently pulled down a 230 3300 engine, valves burnt out, barrells out of round at 370 hrs. All services done correctly, run on av-gas for life of motor, so what the hell is going on with these things. They would have almost certainly been running the lean burn economy kit which is now since defunct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigPete Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Fair suck of the sav you guys :ah_oh: - sheeeshhh. :black_eye: To own one is to love one. :heart: I've had my J160c now since February 2006. So far I've put 433 hours on her and over 900 landings. (yes, definately female, lots of maintenance required). i_dunno First burnt out valve at 93 hours :yuk: - fixed by Jabiru agent and back in the air in less than 3 days. :thumb_up: I know the parts was ordered on a Sunday from Jabiru. Changed jets sizes as directed (by Jabiru) at 241 hours - burnt valve again at 275 hours (the change of jet size was too late to save this one) :yuk: - fixed by Jabiru agent - at no cost to me. (well and truly out of warranty). :thumb_up: Since then - no wuckers. :thumb_up: Runs like a charm. (allthough I did have a little problem with the flap motor). I have seen many small and positive improvements on later Jabirus after mine. Better air vents, better door hinges, better finish and paint work and ongoing engine improvements. Its a work in progress. :heart: And yes, I did meet Rod Stiff when I picked up my Jabiru. :) We actually ran into each other in the Bundy terminal (I recognized him, he wouldn't know me from a bar of soap) i_dunno - I was arriving, he was leaving - I introduced myself and got a very luke warm reception - so I don't know - he may have been pre-occupied with something, quite strange. Now don't get me wrong - he wasn't rude, just - well, indifferent. regards :big_grin::big_grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacmiles Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 They would have almost certainly been running the lean burn economy kit which is now since defunct! Brent,i dont know enough about the history of this plane to know weather it is running a lean burn kit but ill find out. Tommo,can you adjust valve clearances on a hydrolic engine?.Please note, im listening to what others are saying,im not a machanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yeah, not normally! Not sure about a Jab engine though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 If this is the so called progress out of 15years the 2045 model Jabiru should nearly be right:loopy: So Bla. You have never flown one, or been in one, yet you feel the need to make 10 posts in this thread, 9 of which rubbish or snipe away at what is undoubtedly the most popular brand in the country and a family of engines that are exported worldwide and which are accepted into the VH register. You, of course have every right to post here .... but 10 in the negative, with no experience, is a bit over the top, I reckon. But you must be starting to run out of negatives, as the last 2 posts are almost identical. And if you think that all engineering is not an evolutionary business, then you need to take some realism pills. I assume that the XT912S/Tecnam P92 Echo that you own or rent is just perfect, and am so pleased for you. Kind regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Well said Captain, I think his [bLA82] record is scratched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLA82 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 So Bla.You have never flown one, or been in one, yet you feel the need to make 10 posts in this thread, 9 of which rubbish or snipe away at what is undoubtedly the most popular brand in the country . And if you think that all engineering is not an evolutionary business, then you need to take some realism pills. I assume that the XT912S/Tecnam P92 Echo that you own or rent is just perfect, Kind regards Geoff CAPTAIN, As I said I wasn't bagging the aircraft just the engine and yes I have never been flying i one but when I sat in a Jab at Bunderberg I found it plain(my opinion of course) but from an outsider who has read all the reports it doesn't paint a pretty picture. Engineering being evolutionary yes but after 15 years and still having the same issue they obviously need some hired help because at this rate we will be all flying electric hovercars before they get it right. Yes they are Ausralia's best selling brand because they are cheap and what competition of other Australian made aircraft do they have? So yes captain I don't have the experience of all of you Jabiru owners and I never will but I from an outsiders opinion it just a case of owners defending their decision to buy one. As far as the tecnam I don't own it but I would love someone to show me a Jab that is in 10% good condition as it is after the hours flown. And no Geoff my record is not scratched, is my opinion and it is worth just as much as yours. This thread was labeled "Why do people dislike Jabirus" so isn't it asking for peoples opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drizzt1978 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 AND The gloves are off. Round Two!!! Fight! :hittinghead: :black_eye::black_eye::black_eye::black_eye: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 please :big_grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest watto Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 It's down behind the wash sheds after school for this one!!!!! hehehehe Watto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanzahero Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Tommo, Hydrolic lifters are for cars... Ever seen a truck or any other high load engine with them? I believe that they also have the option for solid lifters.. Much better idea, me thinks. Stanzahero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Jacmiles, you can see from BigPete's post what I mean by the lean burn kit as he has clearly demonstrated for us! Yeah Tomo, you can't adjust tappets in a hydraulic engine. Hydraulic lifters are good but can be an issue as they may actually 'mask' a problem with the valves. With the solid lifters, one would religeously adjust their tappets and note and major changes thus indicating which valves might be receding into the seats. With the hydraulic lifters you have no way of knowing how much the valves have receeded and as such a valve could break off and you didn't know what was coming until it's too late, unless a leakdown test was performed and the change in condition of valve performance was noted. When I ran my engine on the lean burn kit for 200+ hours I had to adjust the tappets every 25 hours as they were closing up. Now that I changed to the rich mixture for the last 200 hours or so, I've only had to adjust probably 4 tappets after the initial 50 hours of settling in, as they simply aren't closing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilby54 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I flew a Jab that had over 5000 hours on it that was in imaculate condition and probably one of the nicest short fuse around. I think that value for money they are good aircraft that are easy to maintain and easily fixed if they suffer an accident. Having said that, I don't like the seating as it is just plain tough on the bum after about 1 - 2 hours and I would prefer a stick on each side. At least they moved the throttle from between your legs (looked like everyone had STD!) and put it in the panel.:big_grin: Tecnams have a lot going for them but they don't repair easily if you bend one or are in a hurry for parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quentas Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I fly a J230, a 172 and a 210 and I find the J230 the most pleasant machine for long distances. It uses about the same amount of fuel as my Magna except I am going double the speeds. I agree there are tecnams and sportstars that have `better` control feel and better finish but for 100k, most people I talk to dream of owning a J230 let alone a sportstar or tecnam at a third more. Jabiru are 95% there..just 5% to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Engineering being evolutionary yes but after 15 years and still having the same issue they obviously need some hired help because at this rate we will be all flying electric hovercars before they get it right. Sure there have been issues over the years, but things are FAR different now from what they were "15 years" ago. This thread was labeled "Why do people dislike Jabirus" so isn't it asking for peoples opinions? Brent has it spot on in my opinion. I have said elsewhere here that the biggest mistake J have made in recent times is to chase economy with that lean-burn kit. As a result, EGT temps were a little too high and the valves, seats and alloy heads became an issue ... IMHO. Regards Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Just a word on hydraulic lifters. you can measure the rocker/ stem gap. part of good maintainence. to check them remove the pushrod and bleed the lifter down with a modified pushrod, reassemble and measure the gap, can't remember the figure for limits off my head but it is quite large .250 plus, you can work out what valves are going to give problems. Back to topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Why do lots of people dislike Jabirus? Because they go further and faster on a tank of fuel than almost anything else, they cost half as much as the half comparable imports and this makes them jealous, as shown here in previous posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I believe that they also have the option for solid lifters..Much better idea, me thinks. Yep solid lifters are much better, me thinks too:ah_oh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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