Fuel reserves

[Wayne T Mathews]

I am afraid it is an area which appears to be under undertood......Now I know that this may seem to be a bit off the discussion of reserves, But in the context of undertanding the situation where reserves are likely to be considered fully, the other factors must come into the discussion. Nev

In my opinion, Nev, everything you have said in this post is valid. To think it was not would be akin to thinking the approach was not valid to the landing... Having said that though, forgive me, I was once accused by an FAA Examiner of writing and teaching what he called, "Niger and Arab procedures", which required me to defend my position. I did that by explaining that of the 15 professional flight engineers I had working for me, not one of them was an aeronautical design engineer. They were good men though. Hell, one of them was a qualified, and practising, aviation lawyer. They all had FAA Airframe & Powerplant [A&P] maintenance certificates underpinning their F/E certificates. They could, and would in a pinch, especially when we started doing military charters to the Middle East, manage their fuel using the information you and Turbz have put on the table to be considered. But they were professional flight engineers working in the crew of aircraft that would have up to 400 people onboard, and operating up to 3 hours away from the nearest dry land, with three dirty great big, highly reliable GE engines, all being maintained daily by professional ground crew.

 

Even with those men though, the secret to a consistently smooth, safe operation, was to keep it simple. It is true, we should all, from the Cub Wasp, right through to the A380 Operators, know accurately how much useable fuel we have available in our tanks. Which as Turbz has pointed out, we should only have to calculate once, unless of course, we have a reason to suspect it's changed. We also need to know how much fuel we need to complete the flight, from start-up all the way through to shutdown. On Ryan International's DC10s, I had the F/Es run a simple "how-goes-it" log that provided a two point 3% accuracy check. I'm told the A380 guys have a computer that does a similar thing for them. And alright, the Cub Wasp guys don't get it so good. They have to do it in their heads. But hey, it's not rocket science. In my opinion, there are reasons why some people run out of fuel and have to do dead stick landings. But short of unpredictable fuel system failures or battle damage, there are no excuses...

 

 

[ahlocks]

if it was about how to buy a cheaper GPS or similar the thread would be filled with posts.

:wtf:Is there something better than i(FR)Phone?... how much?

 

 

[kaz3g]

I've picked your post Howard, because it really asks the big question. The answer is NO - because this little rabbit learns from his mistakes without asking Big Brother to intervene. If you haven't worked out what caused your miscalculation - ask your CP or CFI.... ....

 

 

This little bunny nearly lost her tail for a powder puff once, but learned her lesson, too! "Keep flying the aeroplane!!!"

 

Kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

And land BEFORE you run out of fuel. It's harder to do it after. Wayne your F/E's had a discipline and a proven method . Thanks ..Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

:wtf:Is there something better than i(FR)Phone?... how much?

IFR has proved to be the best, and cheapest because you don't need updated WAC charts, and you don't even need a Shell road map, although in your case the traffic lights and stop signs may cause issues.....in which case just turn on the siren and go straight thru.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Have to expect occassional bumps owing to not having W®X radar operational.

 

P.S. What's a WAC Chart??

 

 

[turboplanner]

Water At Crossroad

 

It was adopted as an amusing reference to windmills near roads in a captured Japanese invasion document in WWII.

 

 

[facthunter]

For those who might not know a World Aeronautical Chart .. 1/1,000,000 scale . Lamberts' Conformal Orthomorphic, based on a projection on two selected latitudes.. essentially Scale is uniform across the chart.(Close, but not really ) No good in polar regions, borders do not match exactly. gets a bit complex. Great circles are straight lines. My memory is fading, for any more.. No wonder you guys want to use GPS. Nev.

 

 

[fallowdeer]

Does this mean helicopters engaged in aerial work, lifting, spraying etc, operating down to 15 or so minutes of fuel in order to increase payload are operating illegally? Common practice in my part of the world.

 

 

[facthunter]

I would assume helicopters don't need aerodromes in the normal sense. Thats why they are used in extreme locations for unusual purposes. I wouldn't think that would be approved for offshore work or operating into larger aerodromes. Might be operating under a permit ( approval). Nev

 

 

[ahlocks]

For those who might not know a World Aeronautical Chart ..

Thanks Nev. (The WAC comment was to distract Tubz before he pinched himself on his slide rule.)

I actually use a WAC quite regularly. Mainly to keep the setting sun out of my eyes on those just before last light cross countries....

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I use the 45 min when VFR below 5000, above that I use a more complex calculation from my GA days, I have 40 liters I have on the back seat for long trips, in total, I have just over 6 hours total, but I always plan on 5 hrs 15 min, the plan is a starting point, the enroute fuel recalculations are the then taken into consideration as is the planned weather and the actual weather. I have several times eaten into my reserves, once for a closed runway due to a stricken vehicle but my alternate was just 10nm away. It is there to be used if the plan has been altered, you just can't plan on using it before you takeoff. I don't believe that for Raa or VFR flights that using your reserve ( partially) is an incident unless you actually run dry, then I would submit a report. Good airmanship is all about keeping yourself safe and others, the regulations are there to enforce our adherence to he rules, not always are we fined for breaches.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

For those who might not know a World Aeronautical Chart .......... No wonder you guys want to use GPS. Nev.

A young mate of mine (honestly, it wasn't me) was telling me that, a few months back he was just West of Katoomba heading for Woolongong, when it occured to him that if his GPS failed, he had no idea where he was, or where he was going to go, or even could go, if he had to divert. Since then he's bought himself a ute load of charts, drawn all sorts of neat pencil lines on them, and takes them with him every time he flies. As backups to the ipad he bought.

 

 

Aargh,,, another convert to intelligent thinking, planning and navigation... YEESS

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

There is a lot of good information in this thread, but I am concerned and shocked about some of the attitudes displayed! Not what I would have expected from people attracted to aviation.

 

Fuel planning (like all things) can be as simple (or as hard) as you want to make it. But like all things in aviation, you need to be able to make sound decisions in order to execute your plan. Like it or not, even the simplest of aircraft are bound by a lot of the same rules as an A-380, I'm sorry, but blatant disregard of those rules is an unhealthy attitude in aviation. As is the I don't need any help attitude.

 

Remember the human factors training anyone?

 

PS: Whatever the rules (or guidelines) say, having some for 'mum and the kids' (variable reserve, contingency fuel, margin, call it what you like) is not a bad thing, expecting a five hour flight to be completed as per the plan and arrive with minimum fuel is!

 

 

[djpacro]

I note that the fixed reserve per the CAAP is at holding fuel flow not cruise fuel flow. For the airplanes that I fly 45 mins holding is roughly 30 mins at 65% power cruise. Many, including myself, take the fixed reserve at cruise fuel flow. The Pitts has an endurance of 2.5 hrs so "safe" endurance is 1 hr 45 mins. Important to note that putting the mixture rich and full throttle will make a mockery of that reserve very quickly.

 

 

[ahlocks]

There is a lot of good information in this thread, but I am concerned and shocked about some of the attitudes displayed!

HH, or anyone for that matter, it's best not to confuse the bit of tail pulling that's going on with reality.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I don't think he was referring to you Ahlo, I think he can see the serious potential

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

HH, or anyone for that matter, it's best not to confuse the bit of tail pulling that's going on with reality.

Ahlocks, I love a bit of tail pulling myself, but if some of the contributors to this thread are representative of flying as a whole, we have a lot to be worried about.

 

 

[facthunter]

If there is any doubt about something being misinterpreted or confused it is better to be sure about the meaning, in aviation. Nev

 

 

[K-man]

Apropos the safety thread and last light, I was thinking about fuel burn and fuel reserves. Finding this thread with a lot of interesting discussion, I thought I would bump it and continue the discussion.

 

There's a bit of confusion about regarding reserves. There's enough information here to satisfy anyone so I won't rehash it.

 

The question was asked, does anyone still do fuel calculations? Everyone I know is most particular in calculating fuel required to the last drop.

 

On of the longest runs we planned was from Kununurra to Broome via Prince Regent and Cape Leveque. All up it was just on 500 miles which would have us landing pretty much with the reserve remaining and not much more. An easy option was to detour via Drysdale Station and top up there. That simple choice reduced the run to 370 miles and left us with 20+ litres above the reserve.

 

 

[Pearo]

I've picked your post Howard, because it really asks the big question. The answer is NO - because this little rabbit learns from his mistakes without asking Big Brother to intervene. If you haven't worked out what caused your miscalculation - ask your CP or CFI. ,

I learn from my mistakes, but I also learn from other peoples mistakes. Its not about big brother intervening, its about understanding why we make mistakes.

 

 

[jetjr]

Theres a nice basic fuel calculator in the last column in ozrunwys

 

Can play with fill and landings, think it just uses simple av fuel burn ou have in for the AC

 

 

[dutchroll]

Interesting thread.

 

One of the first things I did when I started flying my Experimental was check the fuel flows and level flight IAS at each standard power setting (full power, climb, nominal 2, cruise 1 leaned, cruise 2 leaned, and endurance) and tabulate those figures on my checklist card.

 

I always calculate fuel burn for a distance flight. Always, even when I already know I'm going to fill it up, which is normally the case. The 45 mins is a holding fuel, but you also need to know how to get the best endurance flow out of your plane in order to sensibly calculate that figure.

 

In the big iron stuff the company calculates it all for us, but we still spend more time in flight planning checking their fuel calculations (and usually ordering extra) than anything else.

 

As one of my professional colleagues once pointed out: "they're fuel tanks, not air tanks".

 

 

[johnm]

'ere's one where when reserve was included - unusable fuel was not considered - assuming link will work:

 

http://www.caa.govt.nz/Script/Accident_Details.asp?Oc=14/2869

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Theres a nice basic fuel calculator in the last column in ozrunwysCan play with fill and landings, think it just uses simple av fuel burn ou have in for the AC

What happens if your Ipad stops working? are you still doing a manual fuel log?

David