turboplanner Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/two-men-escape-from-plane-crash/story-e6frf7kf-1226521663475 Another statistic, but good outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Here is the Police Report: Title: Light plane crash - Gilgandra http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/light-plane-crash-gilgandra-nsw-police-online-press-release.51561/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 So that one will be used as another "Successful save" statistic for the ballistic parachute suppliers....."It landed in a big paddock and was substantially damaged"......Wonder if it would have been substantially damaged if the big red handle didnt get pulled and it just had to make a normal emergency landing (albeit under control at teh time) (Assumption by me...The wing didnt fall off in the air meaning the red handle was the last possible option.....If it did the engine failing might not have been bothered with for reporting purposes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I rarely comment as early as this but if an engine fails and the terrain isnt absolutely dreadfull, why would you deploy the chute? Planes fly quite well with the engine stopped.... Everyone knows that you call the insurance company on the way down because the plane is usually a write-off. You don't just gently alight on the deck and step out like Mary Poppins. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yampy Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 As is usual , there are assumptions bring made before the facts are reported . Surely in all of this , the great result is that the two occupants escaped without major injury , only requiring rather less than life saving intervention at hospital . So perhaps they didn't just " step out like Mary Poppins " after all .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Let's wait to see if we can get to hear more...we only have a media and initial police press release to go on...perhaps it was really a 747 that was landing in Melbourne at the same time that aunt Betty's cardigan flew off in the wind and landed up at Gilgandra. I know one thing for sure, even if there was a 60 mile paddock under me if it didn't look that inviting at x,000 feet then I would be pulling that bloody red handle, stuff the plane. I know of an Archer that had an engine failure and it wasn't the stopped engine that was probably going to kill them, it was not being able to see out the screen with all the oil covering it...that was up at Shepparton but luckily they were able to see through a little corner of the screen where the oil was a lot thinner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 My mate called the other day, he's the instructor at my satellite school in Gundy. A pilot called him from the air recently, the convo went like this..: Instuctor: hello? Pilot: Yea Don, I just had an engine failure Instructor: Sh!t, are you ok, hows the aeroplane? Pilot: Ill tell you in a few minutes, im still in the air!! Instructor: WTF!!! Your kidding me right? Pilot: Nope, I wouldnt joke about these things. Instructor: You can't be in the air, its too quiet. Pilot: Yea exactly, thats the F@#$ng problem!!!!!! True story... Anyway, it all ended ok, minimal damage to the plane. But a very good discussion given to the pilot regarding procedures..;) You never know how someone will react, all that matters is the outcome... Cheers 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Yep, Oil covered windscreen could make your pucker valve work overtime!!! and reach for the big red handle...whether there or not! When I think of gilgandra Paddocks....lots of paddocks and flat! comes to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Aircraft type could be a factor too. Just as an example I don't think a Cirrus would be very user friendly with no engine & they do have a big red handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 There is a lot of misinformation about ballistics chutes ... I love Nev's analogy to Mary Poppins ... LOL. A landing under a ballistic chute certainly is NOT gentle on the aircraft or the occupants, BUT you usually survive ... hallelujah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I guess it depends on the type of person you are. Me I dont do well sitting back watching. To me pulling the handle is a move from controller to observer. Thats not to say that there arent occasions thats appropriate, and perhaps that was the mistake with my first post, I dont know of the circumstances in this particular crash. But for me, if I can continue to control I will before handing over to the "the gods" The Yank guy that used to do those amazing aeros in that twin, poor coffee into a cup while partway through a roll.....I think it was him who said said fly the aeroplane as far as you can into a crash, controll it until there is no more control to be had..... or words to that effect Andy Apologies if I upset anyone with my first post I didnt intend to. Bull ....Chinashop.... thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 If you land in the top of a big tree and it then falls out of the tree you can still be dead. I wouldn't like to think that "pulling the red handle" was a standard response to an engine failure. There is no absolute get out of trouble button. I would have thought that structural failure mid air collision etc might be the normal situation you cover. If you had a fire it might be better to get down quicker than a chute. Perhaps the chute is quick enough. No harm in discussing it. Surviving is the most important thing. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I came to RAA after a bit of cross-country gliding, although I had an engine in mine. Based on discussions in previous posts in this thread, I would just comment that over summer there are heaps of gliders landing in paddocks throughout central NSW and in my experience they are seldom damaged. And further, there are quite a few Tow Planes that then land in those same paddocks and tow the gliders out. If you are going to have an engine out, the mid west of NSW is a pretty good place to have to select a paddock. Having said all that, there is a heap of tiger country around Gilgandra too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The reason I put all the bits in for my ballistic chute is NOT for engine failure or anything like that. It was incase of a structural failure or being hit by someone else and removing any part of the aircraft that will not it allow to fly. The structural failure part I am 100% confident in the manner and due care and attention I paid to every single part putting the aircraft together but there maybe another reason for a structural failure. If the engine stops I am confident I could put it down pretty much anywhere but I would think seriously about bad tiger country and floating down into the trees...not sure on that point that would be a decision made at that time if it ever occurred but I usually fly where I can see a spot I can land but I have to admit there have been a few times I was flying and the pucker valve was pulsing but now I just make sure over those areas I am high enough to glide anywhere to a paddock. On my solo nav recently I had a track over some pretty grubby country I climbed to 6500 as my programmed height over that area as I knew I could glide to some open areas. Everything is in for my chute except the chute itself I am getting together the bucks for it now and when it arrives it is only a half a days work to mount the rocket and the chute and then connect the carabina to the straps etc already installed. Usually once you deploy the chute the aircraft is stuffed anyway I know mine would be as it attaches to the 4 points of the main cabin frame. that will stretch everything around the strongest part of the aircraft it would not be easily put back square thats for sure. When researching the chute I did find that well more than half of the deployments were from pilots running out of fuel...cardinal sin number one really and only around 15% were from collision or structural failure so interesting figures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deltacharlie Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 It's on the ATSB website, a Cirrus SR22. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2012/aair/ao-2012-154.aspx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 TR said: Based on discussions in previous posts in this thread, I would just comment that over summer there are heaps of gliders landing in paddocks throughout central NSW and in my experience they are seldom damaged I think a glider pilot would be more likely to glide a power plane down with a failed engine. It takes a lot of experience to do it accurately and you have to know your a/c glide performance in real practice. A glider has air brakes which can vary your glide ratio considerably. Putting away the brakes fully is almost like having a throttle and deploying them can send you down almost like an elevator just when you want. A power plane does not have this feature even if sideslipping, though that varies a lot from plane to plane. An airline pilot I know had an engine failure in SA flying from Perth. He almost made it into one of the big paddocks but was short and went through a fence. In my own practice forced landings I can see the deception that creates this. Higher up you will probably be doing turns to do some sort of a circuit and it will appear looking out front that you don't loose that much extra height in those turns. Then at some stage you turn onto final and you don't allow for the real loss of height in that turn, but now you can see it because you are very close to the ground. I have found myself allowing extra height or turning closer in on final to the point I may even appear to overshoot a bit. In fact I would sooner overshoot a bit and have to ground loop the a/c to avoid trees or ditch at the far end. Also, I always choose a paddock with no trees at the near end. Again, I can ground loop the a/c to avoid any trees on the far end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapaFox Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The paddock that they came down into looks practically ideal for an emergency landing from the photos http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2012/11/cirrus-sr22-g3-turbo-gts-vh-wyh.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The Yank guy that used to do those amazing aeros in that twin, poor coffee into a cup while partway through a roll.....I think it was him who said said fly the aeroplane as far as you can into a crash, controll it until there is no more control to be had..... or words to that effect I'll take the opportunity to publicise this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp2Uc9XvmjY Bob Hoover "The difficult thing is pouring the tea back-handed" !!! Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 I think a glider pilot would be more likely to glide a power plane down with a failed engine. It takes a lot of experience to do it accurately and you have to know your a/c glide performance in real practice. What on earth are you Instructors out there teaching (or not teaching);you don't teach forced landings any more? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The "yank guy" is pretty good. Though would have to do it where there is no tubulance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Here is a question. You have an engine failure over doubtful terrain. Could you glide in to as close a landing as possible and pull the big red handle, to use the chute to stop your froward speed at just above ground level? I imagine the plane would stop its forward momentum and thenpivot around the chute until it fell back on its tail. Anyone got any better ideas? I know some people have been severely injured using a ballistic chute. One pilot is restricted to a wheel chair, because he came down in a dam and got no gradual slow down from the gear legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 You would have to time it just right. The problem is getting the practice without destroying a heap of a/c. [and yourself] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 What on earth are you Instructors out there teaching (or not teaching);you don't teach forced landings any more? No. It's only taught to glider pilots. :) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 The practice required would be too expensive for me to do a good job YennI I recall a pilot from Williamtown ( near Newcastle ) dead sticked a Sabre or Mirage into the airstrip at Tomago. In windy conditions due to the high trees each side it was a bit of a challenge anyhow . He did a brilliant job and put it down undamaged but was severly reprimanded for not parachuting out of it. In single engined aircraft the only thing that gets you where you are going is the engine keeping going. This sounds pretty obvious, but how sure can you be? Earlier the word was.. "Don't fly over what you can't land on". Perhaps more applicable to two strokes, but valid for all single engined aircraft 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 No. It's only taught to glider pilots. :) Glider pilots do it with stick control, power pilots do it with throttle control, and car drivers do it with no control:yelrotflmao: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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