Rocketing Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 EDIT: I don't know how to remove the words "and how to report?" from the post Title :) Hi, I was involved in a near miss yesterday when a RAA pilot cut me off and joined me on finals at around 400ft. The problem here is that it started when he started to taxi to the runway. He chose the opposite direction (Runway 16 instead of 34) of the 'established' circuits by all that were flying earlier. When asking for his intentions he replied with "taking off" and it was clear that he was receiving radio calls. From that point forward he just ignored everybody. Didn't give any departure call even after asking for intention. We constantly kept an eye open for him. There were several aircraft operating either in the circuit or doing airwork. At a stage we heard that he was flying around / through a parachute dropzone without explaining his intentions after calls were made. The next call was "turning crosswind Runway 34" just after I made a "turning base runway 16" call. Once again we tried to get things sorted and he replied that he will change to Runway 16 (This is after HE decided to change to Runway 16) I completed the Touch and Go and did another circuit. I made downind, base & final calls for a full stop. After turning onto finals and aligned with the runway we did not see any other planes nor were there any calls of downwind or base. Between 350-400ft we suddenly saw the Jabiru coming straight at us about 20 ft above us and about 30 ft to our left while he was still drifting closer to us trying to align with the runway. We immediately turned to the dead side and got out of his way and after several calls on the radio to get his intentions or any response he just calmly went about his own business to land. Afterwards we did speak to the club he hired the aircraft from and they indicated they will take retraining steps. My question is this. How do we report such a systemic and blatant ignorance of aviation safety to make sure a follow up takes place. I am still a student pilot and I know my SI and CFI are doing what they have to but I would like to get a wider range of feedback to learn from this experience. Thanks EDIT: I would like to confirm, as I mentioned in the original post that I know my CFI and SI were reporting it that I don't have to and I would like to confirm that YES, THEY DID - just to make it clear for any discussion. EDIT 2: Just for clarity. I am learning at the FTF at Jaspers Brush and we sometimes also fly at Wollongong. The other pilot was NOT from the same school / club as us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I had a similar incident when I was first learning, all I can say is Welcome to the RAA, old codgers do what they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignition Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 http://www.atsb.gov.au/mandatory/asair.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Page ENR 1.14-1 of AIP states that an airprox must be reported http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/enroute.pdf or dig through the regs at the ATSB website http://www.atsb.gov.au/mandatory/asair.aspx SNAP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icebob Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi Rocketing, had this problem for years until about three years ago I picked up one of those $60 car crash cams and told everyone about it. Sending a file or two to the right authorities and posting pictures with no comment in the aero clubs around have worked wonders. Bob. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 my experience was that the individuals are well known for these incidents by the locals. the locals don't want to rock the boat as no one was harmed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I had a similar incident when I was first learning, all I can say is Welcome to the RAA, old codgers do what they want Hey FT... Enough of the OLD! Most of us that fly are old. Irresponsible. Idiotic. Homicidal. These are more appropriate adjectives for someone who does that in the circuit or elsewhere. I've had to call a change of direction a few times in the past because the tricycles have chosen to take of to the north with a slight tail wind and not be faced with rising ground and transmission lines to the south. I really need to land into wind. But, for goodness sake, I make it very clear with appropriate radio calls and I avoid inconveniencing others. It's called airmanship! And it ought be compulsory!! Kaz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pylon500 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 It's called airmanship! And it ought be compulsory It used to be the norm, and taught by instructors, until the Human Factor thing came in. Now, as long as we've had a good nights sleep, and haven't been smoking too much and can make psychobabble quotes, pilots can do pretty much what they want.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Follow up your complaint to the CFI - don't let it get off the boil or nothing often happens. Suggest you obtain some corroborating statements from others who were also affected by this pilot, because it's currently only your word against his.......and, if he just so happens to be an old codger as suggested, his experience might outweigh yours in a 1 on 1 dispute. If nothing else - you've seen what chaos can be caused by a lack of airmanship. happy days, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketing Posted December 13, 2012 Author Share Posted December 13, 2012 Thank you all. I have learned from all the replies and highlighted a few notes in the ERSA. Studying the ATSB requirements. The CFI and SI are definitely on top of it all and I have enjoyed their feedback and trust them completely. (Please note the pilot was not from our club. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I generally find if no one is injured and no damage, then there are automatic processes to hush things up. If incidents are the norm, then accidents to follow are reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Normoyle Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Was his aircraft faster or slower than your's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Was his aircraft faster or slower than your's? Irrelevant if he was going the opposite way to the existing traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 If you have more incidents you will have a corresponding increase in accidents. They should be treated seriously and it is not enough to say nothing really happened because you were lucky that time. Aircraft coming at each other do not present a very big visual target and are closing fast. Radio should be treated as a useful tool so learn how to use it and accurately describe your position re the aerodrome. It's about airmanship and safety. When I have asked for other aircraft's position in the circuit I could count on one hand when a satisfactory response was forthcoming. The normal response is No response. Don't be scared to use it. Instructors may often relieve the pilot of this responsibility in the early stages of training but it should be well covered before the certificate is issued. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 In OH&S circles the general figure quoted is about 30 near misses to every incident (causing damage/injury). A near miss is defined as an actual occurrence of a set of circumstances that could otherwise have lead to an incident. We tend to generally talk in ratios of (say) 1:100 or 1:1000000 chance of an event happening, assuming that it is near enough to zero to discard as a possibility. Beware the "1's" as they DO happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Normoyle Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Damian, My question was based on the possibility that he came from behind, if it was a head-on incident, then both pilots have some fault, see and avoid, especially on final with various runways in use and a varied mix of skilled pilots and various aircraft types. There is a saying in aircraft accident / incident investigations and that is "that there is never just one thing or action that causes an accident". Now the bandwagon is already full, I'm not having a go at Rocketing, but having known there was a questionable pilot in the circuit, it may have been prudent to give this pilot some extra vigilance in seeing to avoid and playing it safer than usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Normoyle Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Rocketing, After turning onto finals and aligned with the runway we did not see any other planes nor were there any calls of downwind or base. Between 350-400ft we suddenly saw the Jabiru coming straight at us about 20 ft above us and about 30 ft to our left while he was still drifting closer to us trying to align with the runway. Wouldn't the runway now be behind the Jab, if you were lined up on final and he was at your 12 o'clock ( give or take ) for the same runway ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 That is TOO close. Going in a conflicting pattern is setting it up for disaster. You are flying at the exact same height ( or close to it) over the same terrain. head on is hard to see. See and be seen is not a proven answer alone. It needs support which radio provides. An incorrect piece of information ie" I am one mile north at 800' for runway 18", is OK If that IS where he/she is. If you are concentrating on looking for someone in a place where they are not it would be better to have never provided any information as to position at all.. BAD information can be worse than none. This is an area where we must improve.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 You have a responsibility to report this. Don't consider that telling a CFI is reporting, it is not. Not a situation I would want to be in, with a converging aircraft 20' above and slightly left, that is exactly where ypur Port wingtip would be with the normal evading manouevre. It sound as if this is not a one off, so something needs to be done to maintain safe skies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 The reports are in people. The student can forward a seperate report to RaAus and Casa if he/she feels its needed. But in this case the report has been filed. My SI approached the Instructor who was responsible for this pilot, she said that by the end of the conversation she was happy that the Instructor was going to do some retraining with the pilot involved. This was after the usual "lets see if you did anything wrong first." I have had concerns with RaAus pilots operating from this field in the past, I definitely think there is a culture there that is a little lacking, and its not just the RaAus pilots. This 'opinion' has been included in my report to the Raa. But to be honest, im not expecting anything to come of it. The biggest 'common' problem seems to be lack of situational awareness. Lots of erroneous calls, mumbled and sometimes inaudible, but also incorect info given in the calls. "joining downwind when actually crosswind. Things of that nature. The big concern for me was that the instructor who was suposed to be supervising this guy said he has "good days and bad days" but no check ride given, and the pilot was a student. Joining backwards etc, when he should have been supervised. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentreau Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Rocketing said earlier in his post that the Jab had announced he would change to runway 16, so they were not going in opposite directions. I understand from his description of the near-miss that the Jabiru turned base-leg shorter than he did while Rocketing was already on finals. What he saw was the Jab coming from his 9 o'clock while turning onto finals. Someting like this ?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 A system that pulls up "erring pilots" easily need to be installed. Just talk, only provides entertainment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 We don't want policing. We need a "culture" of safety and continuing education. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocketing Posted December 14, 2012 Author Share Posted December 14, 2012 Hi all, I flew my FIRST SOLO today !! Thank you for all the comments and feedback. Yes, Gentreau's image a few posts up sums it up. Maybe just show that the Jabiru also finished his finals turn as that image shows he only turned base but I think people should be able to understand it. I agree 100% with Motz (not because he is my CFI, but he hit the nail on the head there) and I don't need to report it as I knew / know they did it ASAP . I have learned from that experience and the feedback here has given me some viewpoints which only helps me to learn more. Anyway, that is now behind me as I know that we have done all we can / need to in an official sense and I have learned in practical demonstration how to manage my situational awareness and its impact. I flew my FIRST SOLO today !! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Much better news!!!! Well done again :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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