Phil Perry Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I wonder if members know any of these people. . . . . They are usually very experienced, or long time pilots who exhibit "Odd" or semi-dangerous behaviour,. . . ie, exhibit unusual flying tendencies, but no-one ever reports them because they are "Well experienced" and likeable personalities ? I knew a guy named Alan Matthews, who had been flying for over 24 years. He used to fly into our airfield regularly in his Piper Cherokee PA28 140, a G.A. aircraft which he kept at a private strip around 25 Km away from ours. He used to fly with us in a band of around 20 aircraft, to the Isle of Man TT motorcycle races, and was, on the surface, an all round "Mr Nice Guy" I never saw him do anyting particularly dangerous. A couple of years ago, he took a young married couple from where he worked, up for a pleasure flight, neither had ever flown previously. I heard about the crash on the TV news that evening, he had, apparently, been stunting the aircraft very close to the ground, near to where the passengers lived, he was performing stall turns and low level beat - ups of their property, I assume the neighbours were outside having a look. . . a close friend of mine was walking his dog nearby, and noticed the aircraft in a really steep climb, and suddenly, the engine note changed, and increased in pitch enormously. He saw the aircraft stall in a nose-up vertical attitude, from which it disappeard behind the trees. It turned out that the prop had come off. The A.A.I.B discovered that Alan had a history of this type of flying, and his Club members were forever grumbling about his silly flying. BUT THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. The result of the accident was that the Main railway line between London and the North was closed for three days, and the young couple and Pilot were killed instantly on impact, leaving two kids, aged 5 and 3 with no mum and dad. The investigagtion revealed that the pilot had not got a valid medical certificate, and had a heart problem, which was not declared to the authorities. The aircraft was not in posession of a current certificate of airworthiness either. The Pilot's licence had expired for some six years prior to the accident flight. Since this time, a lot of flying clubs ( including ours ) have insisted on sighting everyone's documents to make sure that we don't have a repeat excercise. Anyone know any candidates ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Not specifically Phil, but I do know the worst sound that a passenger can hear when flying with one of those pilots. And that is when the pilot says "Watch this" just after he (or she) tightens their belts. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Not specifically Phil, but I do know the worst sound that a passenger can hear when flying with one of those pilots.And that is when the pilot says "Watch this" just after he (or she) tightens their belts. The age old problem is........ who should say something? If you're an instructor of any category - I think you not only should.............you must! There's just something about low level flight that attracts many pilots. Interestingly, when I've spoken to a couple of 'candidates' who fitted the description above - offering to train them at low level - they declined! Perhaps these show-offs just don't have the right stuff after all? happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Not specifically Phil, but I do know the worst sound that a passenger can hear when flying with one of those pilots.And that is when the pilot says "Watch this" just after he (or she) tightens their belts. The easiest way for a pax to defuse that situation is to say "I feel a bit sick and I think I'm going to throw up", then watch how fast the "watch this" pilot gets them on the ground. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Correct, if you find youself with an idiot pilot, throw up all inside his plane:evil grin: I knew an ex world war two pilot with glider and power qualifications coming out of his ears. Me and some senior club members saw him doing a fully developed spin in a Citabria with passenger and recover about 500 feet agl. That evening he was demoted to basically taking out the trash. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 That evening he was demoted to basically taking out the trash. Good that they took action like that unlike an aerobatic club (committee quite some years ago) which criticised me when I reported it to them. The pilot I observed won't be doing it again but not because of anything I may have said.One friend told me he knew of another bold pilot with a history similar to those mentioned and he did do something - he had words with that person several times. My friend was subsequently criticised by the coroner for not reporting him to CASA. A good lesson there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 When I trained in helicopters one of my co-students was 'a bit odd'. We were just flying little Robinson R22s but he always turned up to training in a full military fireproof flying suit complete with Gentex helmet, while the rest of us had shorts, T shirts and any old headset we could get hold of. He didn't talk much but 'was going into the Canadian forces' as a military rotary pilot as soon as he'd finished his training. That was a bit strange too since most folks get their training once they're in the forces. Anyway he completed his HCPL and immediately got turbine and Squirrel endorsements, there didn't seem to be any shortage of funds, unlike the rest of us... The more time we knew him the more strange and insular he seemed. Shortly after that I left to go flying in the north but the next thing I heard he'd taken a Squirrel load of his family, from Grandfolks to youngies to show what he could do and was seen doing torque turns (a totally useless manoeuvre that often gets the inexperienced into trouble) at low level over the beach, just before he buried the helicopter in the sand. There weren't any survivors. It turned out his father was CEO of a large organisation which had, or had access to the helicopters. It was very sad really because we all felt that something was wrong with his attitude and although we spoke of it among ourselves he just wasn't approachable, and to be honest, after regular re-buffs I don't think we bothered trying to get through to him any more. And after all, who were we to have an opinion, we were just students ourselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 There's a minority of people who just don't "fit" with aeroplanes. I don't think that speaking to them will do much at all and DJP's comment from the coroner is relevent. You will be "blamed " for not going to the authorities. if it is known that you were aware of the matter. If you feel you are in this position and it is serious, go straight to CASA. You are required to do this by law.Unsafe operation of an aircraft... Anyone observing should... Now if it gets around that you did it, your life may change markedly as some will not like what you have done, but you may save an innocent passengers life. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 talking of accidents waiting to happen http://www.news.com.au/national/small-aircraft-preparing-to-make-emergency-landing-at-mangalore-north-of-melbourne/story-fndo4cq1-1226548780973 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 FH said: Now if it gets around that you did it, your life may change markedly as some will not like what you have done, but you may save an innocent passengers life. Nev Better believe it. You belong to a club and the "club predators" will roast you alive, especially if the misfit is a mate which is usually the case -similar mentality. Your supporters will be too scared to defend you. There are only three places I am in aviaton-on the forum, in the air, on the road towing an a/c. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Thanks for all your comments guys. . . . I failed to mention that the pilot of the PA28 had, only two days before beed seen changing the propeller himself, which was illegal, ( And STILL, NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ) as his G.A. aircraft had, ( or as it turned out used to have ) a" PRIVATE certificate of airworthiness" This means, in the UK, that ALL AND ANY maintenence work must be carried out by a licenced engineer at an M3 certified ( CAA Approved ) facility. The only difference between a Private and Public C of A is that on a Private cert., the aircraft cannot be used for hire or reward flight, like a school or flying club aircraft, and is restricted to private flying operations by the owner. Maybe . . . . . if the prop had been fitted correctly, the accident might never have happened, but then the guy would probably still be flying illegally and showing what a daring ace he was to innocent passengers. . . .who knows. . . . . The aircraft was kept at a private site, with NO training organisation nor instructors on site. The "Users" at this site were all basically rather "Well financially endowed" individuals who shared a common site, with no Club infrastructure as such, unlike most Clubs who usually have structured training and safety orientated personnel on hand to point out any wallies in short order, This was how the guy was able to carry on flying un-licensed for so long. His widow said ( in the aftermath ). . . " He was always terrified of doctors and medical examinations. . . . . " As ( Previously ) safety officer of a large Microlight Club [ 50+ aircraft owners ] I have only ONCE had to have a serious chat with a very low airtime Club Pilot, who seemed to think that he was invulnerable, and tried things like spiral dives from 2000 feet onto a runway threshold. . . , trying to land off the end of the spiral. . . . Apparently he had continued to fly like this but at OTHER sites, as we found out later. . . . After the fatal accident at the disused Walsall Airport site ( where Amy Johnson crashed in the 1930s, but survived. . . ) The pilot had attempted another "Spiral dive landing" but had not considered the crosswind. He clipped a treetop and one metre of his right wing leading edge tube was broken clean through and flapped back on itself, held on only by the dacron covering fabric. . . He actually landed successfully, with a passenger on board also. . . then for some Godunknown reason, put the power on and took off again immediately, with 1000 metres of grass remaining in front. . ( ? ) maybe he didn't notice the tree collision, and the bit of wingtip missing. . . . .( ? ) we shall never know. Back then, there was no upper torso or shoulder restraint belt fitted to the flexwing ( trike ) the pilot and passenger had only a lap belt. The aircraft stalled at around 100 feet AGL, and spiralled vertically into the ground, falling on it's right side. The pilot was killed instantly by the weight of the passenger falling onto him and rupturing an artery. The passenger survived with only mild bruising and lacerations. I attended this accident site and was asked to advise the A.A.I.B. on the technical description of the parts of the aircraft, as this was the first flexwing trike fatal that the particular team had attended. A highly experienced microlight instructor turned up a couple of hours later and I handed over to him. At the funeral, it was interesting to note that hte pilot had been a member of the UK "Dangerous Sports" Club !!!!!!!! as he thought Microlight flying was so dangerous I guess, Well. . . It WAS FOR HIM. I went to the site the next day, and photographed the aircraft, making copious notes for our Club. The resulting folder was left in the clubroom for anyone to read, but was removed and destroyed by the airfield operator at the time, who said that . . ."It wasn't a good advertisement for our type of flying. . . . ." No Comment. Following this incident, the BMAA issued a Permit Directive that all similar aircraft must be fitted with a shoulder restraint belt which was slid down the monopole ( Mast) allowing the rear seat person, instructor or passenger to pass their arms thru the loops and protect the front seat occupant against a similar fate. BUT unlike a CAA "Airworthiness Directive" it was diluted to only include aircraft owners who wished to carry a person in the rear seat. . . . ( ! ) Before this mod was widely carried out, there was one further accident, where a pilot was thrown forward during a heavy landing and killed by the weight of the passenger, he was partly decapitated on the wing to "A" frame flying wires. The rear seat safety harness would have turned the incident into a merely expensive fender bender. Very Sad, especially since trike manufacturers sold an approved harness for around Twenty Quid.. Anyway, back to the thread origin. . . . Our Club now insists on a regular audit of members' documents to TRY and preclude any mistakes or attempts to fly outside of the legal envelope, PLUS we have not had any questionable behaviour either, for the last eight years. Prior to this, when the idea was first mooted, a lot of members said that this was an intrusion on their privacy, possibly Illegal, and insulting. I'ts amazing how a couple of accidents seem to alter people's perception. This audit still isn't a legal requirement, but most Clubs now seem to have adopted the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Good thread, I know of an incidence of a bloke flying around on an expired student licence, it was common knowledge and talked about in quiet circles from time to time, he then started taking passengers far and wide , his real I undoing was phoning a club member at last light to enquire just what was the freq for the PAL as he was running quiet late . Last I'd heard someone had had a word to CASA and he's had his wings clipped, a good end result and no fatalities, but even today it isn't known who ( it may have been several ) actually made a complaint to CASA, it was mentioned several times that we'd all feel bloody awful if he killed someone but the "don't be a dobber" culture is a hard one to break , met 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Good thread,I know of an incidence of a bloke flying around on an expired student licence, it was common knowledge and talked about in quiet circles from time to time, he then started taking passengers far and wide , his real I undoing was phoning a club member at last light to enquire just what was the freq for the PAL as he was running quiet late . Last I'd heard someone had had a word to CASA and he's had his wings clipped, a good end result and no fatalities, but even today it isn't known who ( it may have been several ) actually made a complaint to CASA, it was mentioned several times that we'd all feel bloody awful if he killed someone but the "don't be a dobber" culture is a hard one to break , met It is really isn't it. . . . . We don't really want a culture where everyone is terrified of being reported for the slightest minor misdemeanour. . . . we all like a bit of "EXUBERANT" flying now and again, so there's a fine line to walk ( cruise ? ). . . . I'm certainly not a psychologist, and I don't have a definitive underlined answer to it all, but I guess the "The price of safety is eternal vigilance" thingy is always going to crop up. . . . One thing an old wizened eagle said at our club once was. . . . "Monkey sees. . . . Monkey does. . . ." So I guess if us old farts don't want inexperienced pilots copying what WE do in moments of high spirits, however SAFE WE may think we are doing it. . . . . then DON'T DO IT where these people may be watching. . . . ? Dunno. . . difficult one. Maybe we could all teach the kids by example, and just fly super-safely and sedately ALL of the time ? ( ! ) We can't rely on the instructors ALL of the time,. . . .they have to make a few bucks. Hey,. . . .I'm not for one minute suggesting that it's all the fault of wrinkled aviators either !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 All sounds like the safety development of the car. Thousands died before seatbelts were available, collapsable steering columns, crumple zones etc. The safety dept at GM was probably the size of a phone booth and the new flashy car dept would share a big space with the big profit accounting dept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Peer group pressure is the key. IF the culture is that crazy is cool, it will pervade the groupthink. The showoff gene is powerful in men. Bloody EGO!. Smart pilots live longer and don't draw the crabs on the industry. Maybe a bit of culling needed. Send them somewhere else. In flying there are plenty of opportunities to show REAL skills and good example. The clowns who want the cheap thrill won't notice, but the observent will. Which audience do YOU want to respond to? Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth lacey Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Im to old for peer pressure,ffly safe is my motto ,and show offs can go thier own way temporary ozzies! gareth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Good thread,I know of an incidence of a bloke flying around on an expired student licence, it was common knowledge and talked about in quiet circles from time to time, he then started taking passengers far and wide , his real I undoing was phoning a club member at last light to enquire just what was the freq for the PAL as he was running quiet late . Last I'd heard someone had had a word to CASA and he's had his wings clipped, a good end result and no fatalities, but even today it isn't known who ( it may have been several ) actually made a complaint to CASA, it was mentioned several times that we'd all feel bloody awful if he killed someone but the "don't be a dobber" culture is a hard one to break , met Could be the same bloke I knew some years ago doing the same thing except his undoing was to bring back a length of high tensile telephone wire from a party line hooked to his tail wheel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Could be the same bloke I knew some years ago doing the same thing except his undoing was to bring back a length of high tensile telephone wire from a party line hooked to his tail wheel. nah wasn't the same guy, but it sounds like the same attitude, this guy had no idea, couldn't nav without a GPS, shit scared of stalls ,hence always came in hot, was telling all who'd listen that he had a 15 knot headwind so he took 15 kias off his approach speed, didnt understand the diff between ground speed and airspeed!!! Lucky he was always fast on final! he flys no more,which is good for all concerned Met 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru Phil Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 nah wasn't the same guy, but it sounds like the same attitude,this guy had no idea, couldn't nav without a GPS, **** scared of stalls ,hence always came in hot, was telling all who'd listen that he had a 15 knot headwind so he took 15 kias off his approach speed, didnt understand the diff between ground speed and airspeed!!! Lucky he was always fast on final! he flys no more,which is good for all concerned Met Same for this guy. Never got his license again plus aircraft grounded I have suggested to our group that we have as per regs that a responsible person be nominated as duty officer that day. Usually the first to fly that day. His resposibilities are to maintain order at the site and be critical of radio calls etc Seems to work as the group responds after the BBQ and the discussions of the day day unfolds Keeps all aware of the rules etc And stops the possibity of straying away from the norm We have a small club of about 13 craft so this maybe why it works No metalmanz not the same guy as above but the same attitude as you said Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 It's interesting that I have never been asked for a look at my licence and medical ( except maybe Yarra valley FT) , I've had to declare when my medical expires but haven't been asked to prove it. Rented a plane at Christmas and took my log book and documents, I did the required circuits and took the plane, but no one asked to see anything , I could have been a talented self taught rogue for all they knew met ;-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 I guess this can be quite a difficult thing where you have a very small group of pilots, or single operations from own strip etc. . . I remember just how BIG Australia is, from my extensive flying there in most areas in the seventies. . . with operators spread out quite thinly across the map. . . . Our flying club is now growing so fast, that there are several people there that I have not met, and whose names I don't know. Wen my mate Tony and I started that place off with one trike, one MW6 stick insect and four wannabee pilots in 1990 now we have around sixty five aircraft based, and several who tow-in and rig. They mostly refer to me as "That miserable GIT on the air/ground radio. . . . " ! ! ) I noticed a comment re " Can't Nav without GPS". . . in a post above. . . we get a lot of that in the UK, but the weird thing is that controlled airspace infringements have gone UP on average, since GPS became widely available and cheap( ish ). . . where logic would dictate otherwise. . . In the South of England there is some really tightly packed heavy duty airspace, both Mil as well as civil, and it can be "Interesting" when travelling in certain directions there. . . Great care is essential, but the GASIL comic usually records a few every month, and not just privateers either. On one of our local forums, I got called a Luddite recently for suggesting that it would be a good idea to use a chart, nav by visual reference to ground features, try to stick to the planned trackline and . . . maybe. . . . use the supercolouryoubeautmovingmapthingie as a backup. . . .! Not as full time "Electronic Crutch" for lazy navigators. I'm afraid that the "Playstation Generation" has taken hold of a majority our young aviators. . . It's no use trying to talk to a lot of them about basic NAV, the usual response is "I guess BACK IN YOUR DAY... you used to navigate with an alarm clock, a piece of string and a soft drink bottle ?" Difficult to hold a sensible discussion after that. . . !! (Anyway, it's probably not far from the truth !! Plastic bottles are Muti-Purpose, - Spare fuel - pilot bladder relief on a long flight - dropping messages onto the deck with notes asking " Where Am I " ) Enjoyable comments, thanks Gents. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 It's interesting that I have never been asked for a look at my licence and medical ( except maybe Yarra valley FT) , I've had to declare when my medical expires but haven't been asked to prove it. Rented a plane at Christmas and took my log book and documents, I did the required circuits and took the plane, but no one asked to see anything , I could have been a talented self taught rogue for all they knewmet ;-) Hey,. . . . nothing wrong with talented self taught rogues. . . . that's most of my friends ! I took my friend Andy flying in a 152 around 8 years ago, he had been an aeromodeller for around 20 years, and had around 5,000 odd hours on home PC flight sims. ( his estimation - not mine ! ) I was quite surprised at how well he made the jump to an actual, non - virtual aircraft. We played circuits for about and hour or so, and although ( obviously ) he needed help on the first few, as his computer desk at home didn't move in three dimensions and didn't produce Geewhizzforce sensations when the controls were roughly handled. . . plus, he reckoned that the moving map scenery was much more realistic . . . . (!) but it didn't take him long to get a "Feel" for the Cessna and I think, on a calm day, with the right instructor, it wouldn't have taken him very long to solo the thing. We did several of these flights, but then he got married and the money dried up !! ( he wouldn't let me pay for it, so we lost what might possibly have been a really switched on pilot. ( It can be a right bugger, this marriage lark. . . and I reckon it's over-rated. . . . . ) Anyway. . . . . . . I tried to rent a 172 at a coastal airfield in the UK in the 1980s, took all my commercial pilot paperwork and logbook, but they wanted to teach me to fly again. I did a weight and balance check, checked the weather, filed a flight plan for a local sortie with Atc,. . . . then the instructor wanted me to carry out more circuits, ( we had already completed four without any problems, ) then leave the area to carry out a "Controlled Airspace Rejoin procedure . . . ? " If I ever meet a commercial pilot who can't fly a C172 reasonably safely, with 400 + hrs on type. . . .I'm going to Dob him in to the CAA. I asked if this particular airport ( Bournemouth) had some specifically dangerous departure and approach regulations, or was surrounded by missile batteries, but there were none. I just wanted to fly my Daughter up the coast a bit. . . . . . Never mind, I took her on the local rollercoaster instead, it was less costly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 Could be the same bloke I knew some years ago doing the same thing except his undoing was to bring back a length of high tensile telephone wire from a party line hooked to his tail wheel. Phil. . . . . I arrived dragging a length of barbed wire on the left maingear, but it was OK. . . . . . ( ! ) it was our own boundary fence I'd collected enroute. Phil P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Phil. . . . . I arrived dragging a length of barbed wire on the left maingear, but it was OK. . . . . . ( ! ) it was our own boundary fence I'd collected enroute.Phil P We were all real worried about that piece of barbed wire:wtf: No barbed wire was injured in the making of this post. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I reckon to be a good pilot you shouldn't be noticed. If nobody notices your comings and goings, it is a sign that you are doing something right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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