Keenaviator Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 It's interesting to note the strong criticism of Jabiru coming from people who appear to happily roar around in their 2 stroke Rotax powered aircraft. I have experienced several engine failures with these power plants (Pegasus Q trike Rotax 462, Avid Flyer Rotax 582 and a Lightwing Rotax 582 - seized). I have also flown around Australia in a Jabiru SP6 in company with two other Jabirus and apart from some ice induced rough running, no problems. I've now had two aircraft with Jabiru engines - no issues so far. It's true that you shouldn't stake your life on any mechanical device but we do. What we powered aircraft owner/operators need to do is be diligent when it comes to the operation and maintenance of ANY brand of aircraft engine. Arm ourselves with as much knowledge pertaining to the engine/aircraft we operate. Cheers, Laurie 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'm sure the ATSB will include all engines. Not just Jabiru. After all, the other day I saw 14 failed Rotax's in Wayne John's hangar.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'm sure the ATSB will include all engines. Not just Jabiru. After all, the other day I saw 14 failed Rotax's in Wayne John's hangar.... And just how many failed Jabs do you reckon you'd see at the Jab factory ????......................Maj.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle1 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 All arguments raised thus far are based on anecdotal evidence, very similar to what has been raised in previous threads. We have a gut feeling something may be wrong but its not conclusive. Without knowing the failure modes, the inputs of the pilot and the maintainer its all pure speculation. The argument should be about how we plan to gather the data, the parameters of the data and its interpretation. Until then its all 6 schooners at the bar talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Fuel starvation?.... Whats does that have to do with engine make? Also the most common form of engine stoppage isnt it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 And just how many failed Jabs do you reckon you'd see at the Jab factory ????......................Maj.. Not many I'm tipping:happy: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 As I have said a couple of times before on various posts, the safest and most idiot proof fuel system I've flown with, is in the Savannahs. And yes Jetjr, they say that around 60% of engine failures are fuel related. The Savannahs have a ten Ltr sump tank with a low- fuel warning light. There is a push-to-test function on the light, which can be easily checked at any time, to ensure it is working. 30 minutes of fuel in most aircraft should allow getting to an airport, or selecting a suitable alternate landing site. If you sit there fat, dumb, and happy for 30 minutes with a red light glaring at you, than you really are part of Darwins theory. I wish all aircraft had this or a similar system, then we would see less downings due fuel exhaustion. Any crash involving any aircraft right now is like sticking a pin in the giants' bum, and we can certainly do without them.............Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabiru7252 Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 Behead those that insult jabiru! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Normoyle Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I'll be right, lived in Tasmania for 6 months so I've got one spare growing ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 In my view, there are three very simple things to do if you own a Jab, apart from following all of the proper maintenance procedures. - Do a pull through before EVERY flight. If you find a soft pot do not fly, investigate why and fix it. Do not kid yourself it's ok to have a soft compression on a cylinder. - Fly it hard. The extra fuel going through the engine keeps it cool and staves off detonation. Running your engine around at 2800 rpm will cook the engine... get the load up and pour in he fuel, it won't hurt it. - Change your engine lubricant every 25 hours or 3 months, whichever is first, and check your filter for metals every 50 hours. No engine is 100% reliable nor is there a 100% maintenance risk mitigation procedure.... however doing a few very simple things will help you manage potential problems before they occur as well as improve the durability and reliability. Cheers Vev 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 All arguments raised thus far are based on anecdotal evidence, very similar to what has been raised in previous threads. We have a gut feeling something may be wrong but its not conclusive. Without knowing the failure modes, the inputs of the pilot and the maintainer its all pure speculation. The argument should be about how we plan to gather the data, the parameters of the data and its interpretation. Until then its all 6 schooners at the bar talk. Rubbish! I've quoted actual reported RAA statistics for a start. You need to bring yourself up to date with RAA procedures before attempting to reinvent the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheyenne Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 The RAA register show more than 75% of light aircraft are Jabiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I wonder does the Sav 'fail safe' fuel system solve the starvation by guncked up fuel filter engine failure? Laurie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 You might anticipate some results with concern. Would you want owner maintenance reduced and have only LAME engine maintenance? I doubt that would fix much. Also, If old fuel and "gunk" and fuel contamination was significant. There could be a lot of restrictions apply. Getting educated on detail and taking some personal responsibility is probably a lot of the solution but prepare yourself for more regulation and restrictions. That makes aviation safer because there are LESS people doing it, because it is just not worth it when the hassles build up. I think we are on the cusp of a signal event . Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 I think I got close on my post #2. Having an engine failure and making conclusions from it is pointless unless you know what the cause is in each case. Hand grenade engines etc isn't very helpful (Putting it mildly) As far as using mogas from a servo, there is no guarantee of quality. I have had on several occasions had fuel that made my car run so crook that if it had been in an aircraft it would have not had enough power to stay in the air and a crook running aero engine will probably fail fairly quickly. The fuel when it leaves the terminal or refinery is probably OK but there is no control of it in the servo. Anything can go in there. It FAILS all control methods of delivering fuel to aircraft tanks , and is really NOT suitable from a quality assurance aspect. Nev I thought Jabirus were supposed to run on Avgas. So far I have not had problems with Mogas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bluespot Posted August 21, 2013 Share Posted August 21, 2013 The RAA register show more than 75% of light aircraft are Jabiru. Hardly! Maybe you are "counting" the word Jabiru in the register as a percentage of total 3414 -- forgetting that the Jabiru might appear as Manufacturer and Model? My interpretation is quite the opposite -- it shows 78% are not Jabiru. Still at nearly a 1/4 of all "registrations" it means that like the Toyota Landcruisers on Mudlo rocks at Rainbow Beach the perception might be the more the murkier! Looking at my my shared hangar and bundling (my) ICP Savannah with Zenith 701, adding in all Tecnam and Thrusters still only comes to just half the representation of Jabiru on the register Sorry -- Itried to insert table but it does not do so correctly try this link http://www.ourrainbowbeach.com.au/our-rainbow-beach/rainbow-beach/mudlo-rocks.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle1 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 Rubbish! I've quoted actual reported RAA statistics for a start. You need to bring yourself up to date with RAA procedures before attempting to reinvent the wheel. The RAA couldn't organise an afternoon tea party, this has been demonstrated comprehensively. The RAA couldn't tell me how many hours two strokes did as compared to four strokes much less brand of engine. If you have figures as to brand x engine, how many hours they have done between failures, the cause of failure, and a comparison with all the other engines in common service including RAA and VH registered types that fit the "LSA / Ultralight " category I suggest you post them. You lack of understanding of good governance eg meeting procedures and now you have demonstrated a lack of understanding of statistical analysis. I am not interested in the RAA procedures, they cant proceed to even register an aircraft properly. The incompetence that you have so vociferously supported in other threads is why we find ourselves in this position. Lets wait and see what the ATSB has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle1 Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share Posted August 21, 2013 You might anticipate some results with concern. Would you want owner maintenance reduced and have only LAME engine maintenance? I doubt that would fix much. Also, If old fuel and "gunk" and fuel contamination was significant. There could be a lot of restrictions apply. Getting educated on detail and taking some personal responsibility is probably a lot of the solution but prepare yourself for more regulation and restrictions. That makes aviation safer because there are LESS people doing it, because it is just not worth it when the hassles build up. I think we are on the cusp of a signal event . Nev. You are absolutely correct facthunter this is a pivotal moment. Be prepared for massive loss of privileges and increases in cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I I wonder does the Sav 'fail safe' fuel system solve the starvation by guncked up fuel filter engine failure?Laurie. If your getting a Gunked up fuel filter, either of the three may apply.......1. Your fuel filter is too inadequet for the job 2. Your fuel quality is shxx..(should use a Mr Funnel)..or 3. Your not checking your filter often enough. No excuse for poor maintenance.................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 And just how many failed Jabs do you reckon you'd see at the Jab factory ????......................Maj.. This is a bit like, "How many sick people you see in hospital?" The other good place to have a sticky, a formular 1 workshop, then is carnage. Regards Keith Page 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spriteah Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 IIf your getting a Gunked up fuel filter, either of the three may apply.......1. Your fuel filter is too inadequet for the job 2. Your fuel quality is shxx..(should use a Mr Funnel)..or 3. Your not checking your filter often enough. No excuse for poor maintenance.................Maj... The statistic that I find interesting is in the for sale ad's. So many aircraft that engines hours do not match airframe hours. And this is on low hour airframes. And Maj one more on the filter. Make sure you are not getting some ethanol in the mogas disolving your tank and hoses to gunk..... Jim 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I wonder does the Sav 'fail safe' fuel system solve the starvation by guncked up fuel filter engine failure?Laurie. No, and it only helps with the "fuel still in the bowser" problem if you check your instruments and see the red light is on. If you fly along fat dumb and happy you will crash fat dumb and happy just like anyone else. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 The statistic that I find interesting is in the for sale ad's. So many aircraft that engines hours do not match airframe hours. And this is on low hour airframes. Can you really blame a bloke who got 230 hours on his first engine sweating a bit at 450hours and wanting to check out? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 No, and it only helps with the "fuel still in the bowser" problem if you check your instruments and see the red light is on. If you fly along fat dumb and happy you will crash fat dumb and happy just like anyone else. What I was alluding to is that there are other insidious was of suffering an engine failure due to fuel exhaustion - not just the fuel in the bowsers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 I guess they're not all bad. The Jab I flew this weekend has a 2.2L and clicked over 998.5 hours. No rebuilds needed. Goes like a rocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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