VH-MKQ Cessna 172 Accident, Agfest, Tasmania

[poteroo]

Why are the ATSB doing an investigation on this accident? Shirley a waste of dollars and resources. Pretty straight forward and no one killed or any real property destroyed. Quiet news day for them?

An instructor, flying alone, in the LH seat - aircraft at presumably well below max weight - probably several 'lessons' to be learned out of this. My guess is that they'll want to know whether he obtained an accurate strip report, knew his gross weight/Vsf/Vref, and what his approach numbers were. With winter approaching, and the green grass growing - plenty of value in this report for all pilots flying out of paddocks and natural surface strips.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

General practise is to raise flaps soon after touchdown to increase braking effectiveness , especially if using the Cessna short-field landing technique.........Maj....

 

 

[dazza 38]

A bit of thread drift, but I liked flying the Piper Archer and Savage Cub because they both have manual flaps. Both use a lever like a hand break (for those who don't know), heaps better than electric IMO. It makes it easier and a lot quicker to remove the flap on the ground to get weight on wheels.

 

 

[Keenaviator]

A bit of thread drift, but I liked flying the Piper Archer and Savage Cub because they both have manual flaps. Both use a lever like a hand break (for those who don't know), heaps better than electric IMO. It makes it easier and a lot quicker to remove the flap on the ground to get weight on wheels.

Collective! My Cessna 150A tail dragger had this and it was very handy. Laurie

 

 

[David Isaac]

Yep all the old Cessnas had the lever flap actuator, I preferred them as well. You sure as hell knew if you were to fast when you pulled on that lever.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Dumping flap on landing - have heard some interesting debates on this subject:

 

One school of thought is there is a minimum difference when considering the loss of drag from full flaps V the better breaking capability achieved. This debate invariably deviates to the water covered sealed runway.

 

The other one is more on a safety aspect, and that is the approach that flaps should not be touched until taxi speed is reached and turning off the active runway. This is more related to retractable gear but the idea of a good practise used all the time can't hurt. It could be equally argued that the old hand-break type levers would be hard to mistake for undercarriage

 

(naturally the Comanche comes up about this time with a similar lever on the gear)

 

(and I only fly fixed gear aircraft - but you may not always etc etc)

 

Naturally like many aspects of flying, individuals have different ideas but I thought the couple of different approaches to this topic were worth mentioning.

 

Think about it, try it, and make up your own mind.

 

 

[metalman]

Flap levers ! I started out on types with little buttons for the flaps ,then the first time I got in a piper and saw the flap handle I thought "yuk, what an old heap of sh1t", now I love em , the control over what your doing is great . Watching the guys in their super cubs use the flaps to break ground quickly is almost artwork, as for dumping flaps on landing , I was taught that all the controls in the cockpit are there to be used by the pilot, learning to use them effectively is the bit we have to learn well, I won a flying competition by dumping the flaps to get a spot landing, the young instructor was horrified and marked me down for bad airmanship, afterwards in the club the CFI was talking about how effective it can be to dump the flap to nail an aim point ( whether for a comp or more serious reasons) .

 

I've heard of giving the flaps a quick pump to clear obstacles in a forced landing, and on the Coldstream strip with the gravel ( it's now been sealed nicely) leaving the flaps down on a low wing was inviting stone damage ,

 

Matty

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

After landing the Lightwing I get the flaps up quickly, the noticeable extra stability on the roll out is nice especially if there is wind blowing. Very little chance of retracting the gear by mistake....down and welded !...............Maj...

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The best function of the flaps on a highwing Cessna is the better vision and the slow speed available. IF you have the stall warning blow as you touch down you will be hardly moving anyhow and at that speed there is plenty of weight on the wheels when the nose wheel gets on the runway. I do like the old lever rather than electric.. It's instant ( IF you want it).Nev

 

 

[tazzy devil]

Hi I would have to agree with Frank. I fly a 172 all year round including wet grass, with electric flaps same as the Agfest 172, so reducing flap is not an issue, they are too slow to retract. if the aircraft is set up for a short field landing and the stall warning is sounding just above the ground the flaps won't make any difference, in my opinion. My wheels touch down somewhere between 35 to 40 Knots, My Skyfox which has no flap also touches down about the same speed. The reducing Flap school of thought, would suggest I should keep my tail wheel of the ground for shorter landing?? as lowering the tail would increase lift.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Dwayne

 

 

[jetjr]

Flap up/down, your assuming brakes work well. Cessna etc no doubt but ones like Jabiru, the drag from flap is valuable as brakes often dont do alot to slow you down......kind of the same as locked brakes on slippery surface

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you want to taxi fast with a TW lift the tail but it is a bit of a cowboy act. I've done it when the x wind got up after touchdown and I had a long runway and it would have used a lot of downwind brake to taxy normally. It's not what we are talking about here with a slippery surface. I've seen large aircraft on ICE that were groundlooped 180 degrees and use the engines to stop the aircraft. Nice trick if you perform it well. Tricycle U/C though.

 

If you can't stop and the fence is coming up the groundloop is required in gliders and Sapphire etc so you don't lose your head, courtesy of a wire strand.

 

Tassie devil, getting weight on the wheels with a tailwheel up in the air and heavy braking is going to tip you over one day, so I wouldn't bother going down that road. . I'd rather have the tail firmly on the ground with stick back. If you have a good steerable T/W that would be the best position normally. Nev

 

 

[tazzy devil]

Thanks Nev,

 

My point exactly, if you want to slow down fast, the more drag that can be left on the aircraft the better. there for flaps full down or in the case of a tail dragger, tail wheel down both create more drag. as I said before it is just my opinion and it doesn't really matter so long as the pilot walked away. I will wait for the out come with interest.

 

Dwayne

 

P/s I have just over 700 hours in tail draggers of different types and 250 in tricycle and my passion is STOl flying in remote areas. I am always ready to learn new and better ways.

 

 

[Bob Llewellyn]

Thanks Nev,My point exactly, if you want to slow down fast, the more drag that can be left on the aircraft the better. there for flaps full down or in the case of a tail dragger, tail wheel down both create more drag. as I said before it is just my opinion and it doesn't really matter so long as the pilot walked away. I will wait for the out come with interest.

Dwayne

 

P/s I have just over 700 hours in tail draggers of different types and 250 in tricycle and my passion is STOl flying in remote areas. I am always ready to learn new and better ways.

In the air, large flap deflections produce substantial induced drag, especially at lower flight speeds. Once the angle of attack is reduced, such as getting all tricycle wheel on the ground, the drag is small, and diminishing as the square of the speed reduction. The energy disappated by flap drag after getting the nosewheel on the ground is small, the physics won't have it any other way.

Just after touchdown, when the aircraft is rolling fast, is when the brakes can make the biggest difference to the ground roll - if they can get some grip. Dumping flap unquestionably increases the weight on the wheels.

 

It is quite possibly that the Cessna flaps retract so slowly that the reduction of high-speed rolling drag vs the gradual increase of weight on the wheels make it no different one way or another. But US airstrips are huge... I, personally, very much dislike giving away a degree of control over the aeroplane just so it has a more "airliner" feel - which is why Cessna brought in electic flaps - or for any other reason.

 

 

[planedriver]

You can't help yourself Alan.

 

Maybe it's a pommy thing, tyre tread depth inspection? or simply something in the name.

 

Alan

 

 

[poteroo]

In the air, large flap deflections produce substantial induced drag, especially at lower flight speeds. Once the angle of attack is reduced, such as getting all tricycle wheel on the ground, the drag is small, and diminishing as the square of the speed reduction. The energy disappated by flap drag after getting the nosewheel on the ground is small, the physics won't have it any other way.Just after touchdown, when the aircraft is rolling fast, is when the brakes can make the biggest difference to the ground roll - if they can get some grip. Dumping flap unquestionably increases the weight on the wheels.

It is quite possibly that the Cessna flaps retract so slowly that the reduction of high-speed rolling drag vs the gradual increase of weight on the wheels make it no different one way or another. But US airstrips are huge... I, personally, very much dislike giving away a degree of control over the aeroplane just so it has a more "airliner" feel - which is why Cessna brought in electic flaps - or for any other reason.

Important point - if they can get some grip! Knowing, or expecting, the strip to be wet and slippery, is a great incentive to touchdown with a very nose high attitude so as to maximise the drag. You'd not be expecting too much braking performance early in the landing run so probably wouldn't use them too harshly until the aircraft decelerated below 30/35 kts. Lightly loaded C172 should have a full flap stall of probably 45 kts. With an approach of say 55 IAS, and wheels on of 45 kts you are then only moving at 25 m/sec. Even a 10 sec ground run should then only consume 250m of strip - during which you are braking carefully. Worst thing is to have brakes lock up. All will be revealed as our intrepid ATSB takes control!

 

 

[kaz3g]

General practise is to raise flaps soon after touchdown to increase braking effectiveness , especially if using the Cessna short-field landing technique.........Maj....

It's very useful in less complex aircraft, but be careful if it is your habit. More than one Bonanza pilot for example has come undone moving to dump flaps on the landing role only to retract the gear by mistake.

 

Kaz

 

 

[M61A1]

It's very useful in less complex aircraft, but be careful if it is your habit. More than one Bonanza pilot for example has come undone moving to dump flaps on the landing role only to retract the gear by mistake.Kaz

Still has the desired effect of reducing the landing roll though.

 

 

[Teckair]

Still has the desired effect of reducing the landing roll though.

Yeah and less likely to go through 2 fences. Best way is is to dump the nose wheel, get a tail wheel and do 3 pointers.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Yep and if you really stuff it up, use that little wheel on the back and the principle of moments and accelerating G forces and ground loop the bugga ... before you hit the fence. It just might stop you and you may only damage the tailfeathers.

 

 

[facthunter]

Possibly a wingtip...... No grip? Landing slow is the go. The runway behind you can't be used also. Don't float. People at long airstrips get used to using too much runway if they don't watch it. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

Not stopping...raise flaps, power on and go around! Don

 

 

[David Isaac]

Not stopping...raise flaps, power on and go around! Don

Seems fairly logical doesn't it Don, if you realise you aint gonna stop early enough, go around, there was only 1 POB, a C172 with 1 up has quite reasonable performance ... but we weren't there so don't really know the dynamics of what was happening. Cant even see the fence in the photograph.

 

 

[facthunter]

Putting the nosewheel into a hole is a bit unlucky. Nev

 

 

[metalman]

Putting the nosewheel into a hole is a bit unlucky. Nev

It does shorten the ground roll quite a bit though,

Matty