Plane Crash North Stradbroke Island

[farri]

If we were told what the cause of the accidents were that would be a big help.

Richard, I agree on that and I`ve been saying that, since you and I started flying..... Not so long ago ( can`t recall exactly when ) I stated on here, that I would expect, Ross Millard, (Maj), as our elected FN QLD Rep. to make the findings of the cause of all accidents, available to us, the members of RA-Aus.

 

Apparently it`s not that simple, especially in the case of fatal accidents. Ross pointed out that there are certain laws that prohibit it and there are also liability issues to deal with.

 

Frank.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Richard, I agree on that and I`ve been saying that, since you and I started flying..... Not so long ago ( can`t recall exactly when ) I stated on here, that I would expect, Ross Millard, (Maj), as our elected FN QLD Rep. to make the findings of the cause of all accidents, available to us, the members of RA-Aus.Apparently it`s not that simple, especially in the case of fatal accidents. Ross pointed out that there are certain laws that prohibit it and there are also liability issues to deal with.

 

Frank.

And As I have said many times on these forums if ATSB were to do the investigation for all FATAL accidents then we would have an interim report within 30 days or so and a full report some time later. No waiting for a Coroners Report.

 

 

[turboplanner]

And As I have said many times on these forums if ATSB were to do the investigation for all FATAL accidents then we would have an interim report within 30 days or so and a full report some time later. No waiting for a Coroners Report.

They'd probably charge a hefty fee though, but it certainly is the way to go.

 

I think what RAA has started to do, talk about certain crashes without identifying the location or people involved is a good step forward, and allows lessons to be absorbed by all members.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

As my friend Frank has said, as board members we do recieve certain details about fatal accidents, often within a few days of them happening. Often we can dig a bit further and maybe get a bit more.

 

However due to the laws of this country which we can't change, once a Coroner is involved ( all fatals) we are simply NOT allowed to speak, or express an opinion about the case.

 

I had my arse kicked over the collision in Townsville for stating certain facts to the press, by the Coroner, via our CEO. As it turned out what I said was correct, and I wouldn't have made the statement unless it was correct.

 

However, if the Coroner wants to get real nasty I could be personally supeonered, held in contempt of the court ( Coroners inquest) and heavily fined, not to mention bringing the RAA into disrepute as a board member.

 

I can however promise you all that if there is something arising from an accident that you do need to know as a matter of safety, I will see that you do know where I can, especially where it involves any serious mechanical failure.

 

A recent accident for instance may have involved a recently purchased advanced aircraft that had flown fine for eight years , the pilot ( assuming low time in the type ) may have let the airspeed decay and entered a spin at a low height, from which it was not possible to recover. Pure speculation of course on my part.

 

An accident previous to that may well have involved an inflight physical ( medical) incapacitation, or could have been the result of bad decision making on the day by the very experienced pilot...again pure speculation on my part.

 

The ATSB are free to select the accidents that they wish to investigate, they are not under any obligation to investigate all fatal accidents. As I understand it, they select accidents that offer the best accident study and potential educational value to larger flying community.

 

The RAAus currently has a very good working understanding and relationship with them, which did not exist five years ago. We can ( and do ! ) send items to them such as damaged GPS units etc if they have specialised equipment or personal with the capability to extract data on our behalf. At times it is not possible for even them to do so, even with all their expertise and specialised equipment, if for instance the item is contaminated by say fuel, salt water or bodily fluids.

 

In my recent experience as a board member, I personally feel that current accidents, as unfortunate as they may be, are being well investigated by our personel tasked with doing so within the RAAus. ( Ops and Tech especially) I can guarantee that to you all, due to some direct involvement in a couple of recent ones on a more personal level than I would have wished.

 

 

[ave8rr]

I find it hard to understand why the ATSB can publish accident findings and not get shot down by the Coroner but the rest of us can't. If ATSB have some sort of exemption by an act of parliament then why can't this same exemption be given to RAAus or any of the other RAAO's. I understand the ASRA advises it's members of accident findings.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I find it hard to understand why the ATSB can publish accident findings and not get shot down by the Coroner but the rest of us can't. If ATSB have some sort of exemption by an act of parliament then why can't this same exemption be given to RAAus or any of the other RAAO's. I understand the ASRA advises it's members of accident findings.

Damn good question ave8rr.......maybe the ATSB being a government funded department, attains the status of 'expert ' witness, and therefore is free to comment ?....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

In addition to my prev post # 104.......from my current privileged 'lofty' position...it appears to me that a lot of the recent accidents may fall into the categories of poor planning, lack of good Human factors decision making, or lack of good basic pilot skills...rather than mechanical failurers.

 

And I feel that we will hear more about it because of the above causes.

 

My opinion only....not that of a board member.

 

 

[M61A1]

In addition to my prev post # 104.......from my current privileged 'lofty' position...it appears to me that a lot of the recent accidents may fall into the categories of poor planning, lack of good Human factors decision making, or lack of good basic pilot skills...rather than mechanical failurers.And I feel that we will hear more about it because of the above causes.

My opinion only....not that of a board member.

So, nothing has changed over the years. Pilots still kill themselves in the same ways that they have for years. What benefit is there investigating the obvious, and at great cost, Other than to satisfy someone's curiosity?

 

 

[turboplanner]

So, nothing has changed over the years. Pilots still kill themselves in the same ways that they have for years. What benefit is there investigating the obvious, and at great cost, Other than to satisfy someone's curiosity?

Many people come into the sport with postage stamp size knowledge of it, and are not that interested in delving back into history.

For example, the answer to your question has been provided many times and is stored on this forum.

 

People react to what happened last week though, and talk about it as they do here, so lessons are learnt by the new ones.

 

There are always unique twists, particularly for those who come unstuck flying into poor visibility - many ways to flatten yourself against a rock without losing your spatial sense.

 

It also reassures some who see the statistics and think they might be next. They are usually the careful ones who are never likely to feature in the news. Giving a clear cause of the crash, such as the pilot was a serial showoff who loved to fly with his wheels in the canefields until he hit the wire and expired, or loved to fly his Drifter a metre above the beach until he copped a wind shear, gives these people the knowledge that the injured and or deceased actually did something which he could avoid.

 

 

[Teckair]

So, nothing has changed over the years. Pilots still kill themselves in the same ways that they have for years. What benefit is there investigating the obvious, and at great cost, Other than to satisfy someone's curiosity?

So the cause of all accidents are obvious to you? Great news! When something goes wrong we can just ask you? It is a wonder the ATSB has not snapped you up! Maybe you can reveal what happened with the Gympie accident?

 

 

[facthunter]

You need accurate analysis full stop. Otherwise the outrageous speculation runs riot. The elephant in the room is "It won't happen to me". THAT sort of thing only happens to other pilots. Yeah right!!

 

Non technical people like many judges and some coroner's come up with some "challenging" conclusions at times....It shouldn't be sacrosanct We are all humans Measure the quality by the source and be prepared to challenge . CASA and the FAA have made some clanger conclusions at times because of lack of expertise or access to it. Ignorance and flying don't mix well. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

Given that the majority of accidents are caused by human factors, and the same old causes keep showing up, why spend millions? I'm not talking about the paying public on RPT. Facthunter is correct when he talks about speculation, but what does it matter? Let them speculate. It's all very nice to have every prang fully investigated, but who's paying? When the public pay, they have a right to expect results for their money. That result is usually just more regulation in this country. If they keep regulating there will be nothing left for you to do recreationally, and that's not just flying. The reality is, most people are just nosey, with the exception of aircraft related problems, knowing the actual cause of ol' so & so's prang is only to satisfy their curiosity, but they won't admit it.

 

The best thing you can do to prevent accidents, is make sure you're not one of them. Either that or just talk about flying online, and don't do it.

 

 

[biggles]

And As I have said many times on these forums if ATSB were to do the investigation for all FATAL accidents then we would have an interim report within 30 days or so and a full report some time later. No waiting for a Coroners Report.

As I have indicated on these forums many times before , don't hold your breath waiting for the ATSB to investigate our accidents, however it should be of interest to all, that the preliminary report of the incident involving the Jabiru, in the Nattai National Park on 2/4/2015 , appeared in on the RAAus website within 30 days of the accident occurring, the investigation done by your fellow pilots who are also RAAus trained accident investigators. I'm a little perplexed as to why there appears to be a preoccupation with receiving immediate reports of accidents , other than ones natural curiosity ,when it is well established , that any findings that do have safety implications for any of our aircraft ,will be notified immediately . Whatever the reason, it should be noted that there has been very few, if any , new causes of accidents during the past 40 years , with around 98% still due to the same old Human Factors ( yes Pilot Error ), including events such as VFR into IMC , fuel exhaustion , engine failure over inhospitable country, primary flight control failure , operating outside the aircraft flight envelope , turn back after engine failure , base/final turn stall , insufficient knowledge of fuel management systems and so it goes ..... Nothing new , most if not all preventable ,but often ending with dire consequences .... all things that we know or were taught during our training. Of course , now that we have 100 or more hours experience, we are very capable pilots , supremely confident ,able to cope with almost anything , and the old book of rules gets thrown out the window . Recently we have had .... "highly experienced ,high hour and very capable pilots " coming unstuck , why ... complacency, a feeling of invincibility or whatever , but that should be a wake-up call to the rest of us , no exemptions . We can't change the past, but let's ramp up our professionalism a notch or two, and see how long we can go without another fatality, the ball is in our court , you and me ,nobody else, us RAAus pilots ! It also appears that many hirers of aircraft , have little knowledge of the aircraft systems, such as the fuel system physical layout and operation ,making it very difficult for them to analyse inflight abnormalities . Also often tolerated is an abnormal degree of lost motion ,or sloppiness in the flight controls, which should set alarm bells ringing that maybe 'all is not well' . There appears to be some sort of unquestioned trust that, because the aircraft is maintained by an L2 or whatever, that the aircraft is safe to fly, even though the last inspection may have been weeks ago . One can only imagine how the aircraft may have been treated by the 15 or so hirers since that last inspection . Assume the worst case scenario and actively look for things you consider abnormal, if you don't know 'what's normal' ask somebody that does ! . A thorough pre flight inspection can go a long way to eliminating most of these issues , and will often prove to be the best investment you will ever make , after all you do have an obligation to yourself , your passenger and their families ...... Bob

 

 

[Scotty 1]

I'm looking forward to the memory stick which can be attached to my brain. .Alan.

Is this what you are looking for Guernsey?

 

USB-stick for seniors

 

Soon it will be compulsory for the elderly to not only carry their ID with

 

them, but also their insurance papers, their list of medication and a

 

compact version of their medical history, their views about

 

resuscitation after a cardiac arrest etc, etc.

 

So, when an older person wants to go out he or she will need to carry a

 

lot of paperwork!!

 

That is why there has been developed a special USB stick for seniors.

 

Have a look

 

- - - - - -

 

Available soon, but only on prescription!

 

This way you always have your USB handy?.

 

 

 

 

 

[slb]

........ Maybe you can reveal what happened with the Gympie accident?

I thought Maj already had

An accident previous to that may well have involved an inflight physical ( medical) incapacitation, or could have been the result of bad decision making on the day by the very experienced pilot...again pure speculation on my part.

[biggles]

E News just received from RAAus

 

Recent Fatality near Stradbroke Island

 

It is with regret that we inform our membership of a recent fatality involving a member flying a Lightwing Speed aircraft. While the investigation is still ongoing we believe it is important that we communicate relevant information about accidents of this nature to our membership as soon as practicable. As part of our initial investigation we can advise members that we hold no immediate safety or maintenance concerns for this type of aircraft.

 

As with all accidents of a serious nature, fatal or otherwise, if any areas of immediate safety concern are identified as part of our risk analysis we are committed to continuing to inform members as soon as practicable.

 

 

[Powerin]

While it's all very well to say there are no safety issues with the hardware and therefore make no comment on a death, seeing that the majority of accidents are the result of human factors I believe it's worth giving us all a wake-up call now and then. This unfortunately sometimes makes an example of someone that has died, but it is always more real for me to learn that people can die from fuel mismanagement, or a stall/spin, or flying into IMC, or low level flying or whatever, and makes me more vigilant.

 

Human factors are something we should have learnt and all be aware of....but since we are human we need a reminder of our humanity now and then. I appreciate that the law at present prevents it, but we really need to know the human factors as well as the aircraft issues that lead to an accident so we can learn. I've said it before....if I go in, especially if it's from my own stupidity, feel free to speculate and learn from my mistake.

 

There was a ppl pilot around here that died in a crash from a wire strike. I didn't know him at all, but heard time after time from pilots who knew him, or even from non-pilots that had gone for a ride with him, that he liked low flying. Now and then we all need a wake-up call.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I thought Maj already had

There's nothing in what you quoted that identifies a location, person, aircraft or other detail that points to a specific accident.

 

I'm not sure what your motive was in making this comment, but in trying to link his comments to as specific accident, you, or he could be called before the Coroner, traveling at your own expense to receive a fine or even worse.

 

It's in your own interest not to do this, and if trouble blow up you can be sure that RAA will quickly put an end to the reports, which will disadvantage all members.

 

I think RAA are to be commended for the lateral thinking which at least gives us a reasonably clear indication of why an accident occurred. We can learn a lesson without knowing the identity of the pilot or the location - it's what led up to the incident and how it was handled which is of most value to us.

 

In fact in some respects we are getting information more valuable than what is being churned out by ATSB, and I would expect this to be reflected in some lives being saved, and newer pilots being reassured that they can avoid silly actions and conduct their sport safely.

 

 

[farri]

Whatever the reason, it should be noted that there has been very few, if any , new causes of accidents during the past 40 years , with around 98% still due to the same old Human Factors ( yes Pilot Error ), including events such as VFR into IMC , fuel exhaustion , engine failure over inhospitable country, primary flight control failure , operating outside the aircraft flight envelope , turn back after engine failure , base/final turn stall , insufficient knowledge of fuel management systems and so it goes ..... Nothing new , most if not all preventable

Absolutely correct!.......The human at the controls, Pilot Error!... Any one of us is capable of it.

 

Frank.

 

 

[biggles]

In fact in some respects we are getting information more valuable than what is being churned out by ATSB ( Quote TP)

 

Yes TP ,I think that the timely response by RAAus regarding this incident which occurred earlier this month, clearly demonstrates really how far we have come as an organisation. Investigation of any accident is rarely straightforward nor completed within a short space of time . Nor is it assisted by conflicting witness reports , rumour or innuendo . Often weeks or months of follow up is required . The investigator is also very mindful of the legal implications of his/her report and the likelihood of being cross examined in a court of law ........ Bob

 

 

[facthunter]

Pilot error is a useless term. Too simplistic and all embracing. People don't set out to make errors. There is a reason for every action.(If you go to the trouble of finding it).

 

Human factors....... A very valuable area to explore. We should do it properly sometime, it never ends. It's not a tick and it's fixed thing. Nev

 

 

[farri]

My first engine failure, was at 500 feet AGL, a result of me turning a fuel tap the wrong way.....I made a mistake...Pilot error....Maybe human factors could explain the physiological reason for what I did, but it wouldn`t change the fact that I made a mistake...pilot error.

 

Frank.

 

Ps, Perfect landing in a sugar cane field! flew out once I found what I`d done.

 

 

[facthunter]

You were there and know what you did. It's different if everyone who wasn't there just puts it down to "pilot error" rather than go further into it. And you may be dead and can't correct their impressions.

 

Incidently fuel management and weight and balance are usually 100% or you fail. I wonder why? Most fuel starvation incidents are wrong selection, but the manufacturers don't make it easy sometimes with the way they arrange their fuel selectors.. Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

So pilot error is not worth investigating, really? What happened to learning from others mistakes?

 

 

[M61A1]

So pilot error is not worth investigating, really? What happened to learning from others mistakes?

It is well documented that we have been making the same mistakes almost for as long as aviation has been around. Generally speaking, it happens when you were doing something that you were taught not to, and we're quite aware that you shouldn't be doing it.