Right of way ??

[Russ]

Ok.......you give entering and backtracking runway ********, alls good, 1/2 way down back tracking another aircraft calls he's joined downwind circuit for same runway, all's good, i continue my path, he calls turning base, then he's on final.

 

I'm still back tracking, 100m to turn around, line up and go.......he's now on short final.......i finally get him to return my 3 attempts to make contact with him, he get's uperty telling me to clear the runway.......i tell him to pull his head in, and do a go around, and remind him, he ignored all my previous calls to him, beginning right after he called down wind.............so........was i wrong, should i vacate the runway ????

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

You were in the right

 

Would have been different if he had called downwind first of course

 

 

[SDQDI]

If someone can fly that much of the circuit and you haven't finished backtracking Russ you must be dawdling:amazon:.

 

And of course you can't tell him to pull his head in that is not appropriate radio language .

 

As for if you should vacate the runway, if the surrounds were suitable and you could vacate without any danger then maybe that would be the easiest way to settle any conflict but otherwise if you called first and were backtracking before he joined the circuit I would have said you had right of way unless of course he had any issues and 'needed' to land.

 

If the runway was surrounded by rocks or gullies or unknowns in long grass and you have him on radio then stay on, within reason (obviously if he has engine out or other suitable emergency that negates this!) after all if he does hit you it doesn't matter who was in the right.

 

 

[SDQDI]

P.S. If you are still on the Tarmac there then YES you should vacate the runway it is dark now!

 

 

[Spooks]

Were there any areas on the runway allowing for you to move over while you were backtracking? If so I think that would be the correct thing to do, however I know that a lot of runways are simply a straight strip!

 

From my understanding the aircraft landing always has right of way (unless you'd just landed and were backtracking to clear the runway in which case they cannot force you off) but this chap sounds like he was wasn't yet on final. If he called a short final in the knowledge you were backtracking with nowhere to sensibly vacate, it does seem a bit silly.

 

I found this article which suggests that even if the in-air aircraft has called a short final, they still have right of way

 

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2008/November/200811_Features_Who_Has_the_Right_of_Way.html

 

However despite the rules. I think that we should be applying common sense to situations as well! If I was the chap downwind I'd have probably decreased the speed/weaved/taken a slightly wider circuit to allow for you to take off.

 

 

[Russ]

wasn't dawdling, it's a bloody long runway, and i start my rolls right at the ends. His manner irked me, hence my response, would have obliged and pulled off if his manner was different. Why he ignored my 3 calls ?????. When he turned base i actually expected him to either come down the dead side, or resume a modified downwind leg.

 

 

[Spooks]

And of course you can't tell him to pull his head in that is not appropriate radio language .

Even in Australia?

 

I always had this image of you guys abusing eachother over the radio

 

 

[SDQDI]

I was just stirring Russ .

 

Although I have seen people dawdle down the runway and then do their runups on the keys:loopy:

 

 

[kaz3g]

You had right of way unless he declared an emergency.

 

Not sure how the other pilot thought you would be able to clear the runway but the runway is occupied at any time an aircraft is manoeuvring between the gables...ie both on the formed runway and on the adjoining runway strips...and you would really need to access a taxiway to egress safely.

 

The other pilot had time to extend his downwind And base legs to give you time to depart but chose not to. He should therefore have gone around demonstrating both good airmanship and an understanding of the rules.

 

Twice today I heard pilots of small aircraft calling straight in approaches to busy airfields. I don't understand why it is more important to save a couple of minutes than it is to fly a proper circuit. It's one thing if, for example, it's the Citation that arrived in Shepp this morning or an air ambulance, but C172, PA28 or ultralight? C'mon...

 

Kaz

 

 

[Geoff13]

Right of way belongs to the biggest Truck.

 

Oh sorry wrong forum.

 

 

[Russ]

language.........i was being polite to the tosser.

 

Runups.....i do them on the run, less chance of sucking a stone etc as i'm moving along..........(my view)....looking after me prop

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Upsetting for you Russ but is it possible one of you had intermittent radio issues and he didn't hear your earlier calls? If so it might explain the frustration and agro. Radio problems are all too common.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Yes but the pilot should have seen the aircraft backtracking BEFORE he made his downwind call....to me its the pilot joining the circuit who is wrong ...wasnt he even watching where he was flying to...he would have seen Russ

 

 

[Roundsounds]

CAR 162 (5) says an aircraft on the ground or water must give way to an aircraft landing.

 

If you were backtracking at say 10 knots, you were covering about 330 metres/minute, given a circuit takes about 3 minutes to complete from the beginning of downwind it must be a very long runway! Clearing the runway means you are outside of the runway strip, not just off the sealed section (ie outside the white gable markers). I find people's understanding of this is pretty poor, leagally you cannot land if another aircraft simply pulls off onto the grass but remains inside the white cones / gables. The exception being where a flight strip is designated for use by gliders, appropriately marked and stated in the ERSA or NOTAM (Temora is an example).

 

It's situations like this that make RAA pilots look bad in to the GA fraternity. I'm not necessarily saying two light aircraft cannot safely operate by holding on the grass flight strip whilst another lands or takes off, but it's not legal.

 

 

[poteroo]

Sometimes it's sensible to cut short the backtracking and commence the take-off roll well before reaching the runway threshold. It's not illegal. The main proviso being that you have more than your minimum take-off distance ahead. We do this frequently here on Rwy 32. There's no valid reason to use 2000m of runway just because your school says you 'should' use all the available runway. Common sense!

 

As was said in earlier posts, the aircraft entering the circuit should have been listening out since 10nm and certainly should have been observing on ground movements with joining the circuit. Again' common sense should apply - slow down, fly slightly wider,call the taxying aircraft.

 

Insisting on ones right-of-way has no place in a good safety culture. It's no different to merging lanes on the highway - there'll always be the bully who pushes in, and if you don't defer to them it can become nasty.

 

happy days,

 

 

[kgwilson]

CAR 162 (5) is "An aircraft in flight, or operating on the ground or water, shall give way to other aircraft landing or on final approach to land."

 

The other aircraft had not even joined the circuit when Russ made his first call. Russ was in the right. If Russ had entered the runway when the call was made that he was turning onto base or final then Russ would have been in the wrong. You cannot just invoke 162 (5) when a situation already exists unless you call an emergency.

 

I have had to go around on a number of occasions because of poor or no communication from the aircraft on the ground. In this case the issue is the other way round. I'd certainly have a chat to the pilot. There may have been a communication problem but the pilot in the air should have seen Russ and done the right thing & gone around.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is no excuse for getting personal on the radio. As hard as it might be to accept what someone is doing, sort these things out afterwards if the need exists. Anger has no place in flying aircraft.

 

Could the landing aircraft have reasonably believed you would be out of the way quicker?

 

There is a general assumption that landing aircraft have priority. Nev

 

 

[rhysmcc]

if you can't backtrack and depart prior to the arrive, the rule means you wait until he lands and is clear. The grey issue here is you were not aware of the arrival until you were already backtracking, bad airmanship by the arrival for not answering your calls or extending his circuit. At the end of the day your safety should be number 1 thought, if you didn't think the guy would go around I'd be getting out of his way.

 

If the aero drone requires a radio, maybe put in a report for his lack of responding to calls. Might make mention of your scan of the circuit for aircraft with none visible

 

 

[jetjr]

legality aside, what is the backtracking aircraft supposed to do?

 

No way I would move off the strip not knowing what drains, rocks etc is lying in the grass. You'd have to exit beyond side markers.

 

Once he knew you were there he should go around....also not that big of a deal.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Not enter the runway unless you are assured of departure prior to their arrival, in this case the arriving aircraft wasn't known so no way Russ could be at fault. But had the guy answered his first call with his downwind call then for sure I'd expect the departure to WAIT. Normally I'd offer to extend my downwind if someone called to backtrack.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Seems to me that for most of us we have the radio on and listening into the airfield frequency long before we even start to taxi.....the reasoning being that if someone is inbound you should hear them make their inbound call and from that call know when they be on top, and if they are just local then you should hear positioning calls given the closeness of the airfield......

 

That said, you cannot assume your call in response to an inbound call is heard because they may well be working dual frequencies, local airfield and area frequency as well.....

 

Given that good airmanship is in effect making an uncertain situation as safe as it can be, telling you that you "must" vacate the runway seems to fly in the face of that concept.....so +1 ignorant point to the late final aircraft......and + 1 ignorant point to trying to solve the issue on late final when there were at least 2 other more appropriate legs of the circuit to do so.....I don't consider that late final with an aircraft on the strip with no clear idea of when he intends to vacate to be a stabilised approach.......

 

Finally a go around is not considered an abnormal circuit reaction, it doesn't need to be the surefire instigation of a royal commission........I personally wouldn't ever see the need to go around as a reason to get stroppy on the radio unless your fuel status is an issue and in that case if others don't know you have that issue then +10 ignorant points....

 

Im with JR, If I were in Russ's situation and wasn't sure of the suitability of the sides of the strip then I sure wouldn't do other than what I was always intending to do.....I guess if that makes me ignorant then at least I'll be ignorant with a serviceable aircraft rather than a broken one as a result of someone else's ego....

 

 

[turboplanner]

The key decider here is whether you called "Entering and backtracking Runway XX", which would have been before all this developed.

 

 

[jetjr]

Ok.......you give entering and backtracking runway ********, calls.....he ignored all my previous calls to him, beginning right after he called down wind

[DrZoos]

You where in the right ! There may be reasons he didnt hear you, eg vegetation, positions of aerials etc etc... but at the end of the day, he was on downwind and you are perfectly entitled to enter and backtrack . He should have done a visual and noticed you lined up on the taxi way and been expecting you, then should have seen you when checking on base and final...

 

I have no time for these morons that do tight circuits (which it must have been) and expect every aircraft to know the guy is going to cut it real tight...

 

If as i suspect he saw you there and thought he might race you in, he should have been polite and asked you to hold, said he was on a tight circuit and would expedite quickly....

 

If however you entered later than your saying and dawdled down the runway, knowing he was doing a standard circuit ...then this can in my opinion be a little awkward...as it implies you should hurry (dangerous) or he should extend (rude ?)

 

 

[turboplanner]

If someone called downwind at a country strip, and I was waiting at the threshold and needed to backtrack, I would probably wait it out, but that's very much a judgement call depending on the airstrip, traffic etc. The reason I would wait it out is that both aircraft would be arriving at the downwind end of the runway at about the same time.

 

Some people are sticklers (pricks) for radio procedure and would cut off their right arm rather than make a communicative broadcast.

 

What I was alluding to before, was that of you call XXXX runway xx for xxxxx, as someone alluded to before, landing aircraft have priority.

 

If no one else has called and your call includes ENTERING, you own the runway, so if a collision occurred, or the other aircraft submitted an incident report, you've removed any doubt about who screwed up.