Toestub Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Gday all, Bit of background informtion, presently half way through the cross country part of my training and then shall be moving on to a GA conversion. Ideally long term I would like to be able to hire a 6 seater to move my family for special occasions. I can honestly say that majority of my flying will be solo or with 1 PAX, potentially 2 from time to time. Hire rates to just get experience with GA will become somewhat costly I can see, even dry hire of the local J160 is going to add up very quickly. I wish to learn from the collective wisdom of the more experienced pilots out there as to just which way I should dip my toe in or plunge. Personal thoughts are either a J230 or 430 without ridiculous hours or a 172/182 with much more hours on the clock. Budget I am aiming at is somewhere around the 60 to 80K mark with a bit in reserve for upkeep. I also aim on going to MANY cattle sales (crap, did I pick the wrong day?!?) so the accountant should be kind to the running costs. I am open to other aircraft, these are the only ones I have had any personal experience with. Please be gentle as I am still only 35 hours and am aware I have a huge amount to learn. Regards, Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyflyer Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Often the old saying "if it flies, floats or f*@*s, rent it" is true. It depends on how many hours you will fly in a year. If you can claim the cost for your own aircraft you can also claim for rental. The fixed costs of owning can be pretty steep. Keep asking and gathering information here and at your airfield, rent for a while and then you will be in a much better position to decide. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akromaster Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I'm in the same boat, although I part own a Light sport plane that's not flying at the moment. I'm putting together a spreadsheet for calculating costs in a syndicate up to 10 ppl. I can share beta version if you like, but from my basic figures, it's not going to save you any money owning a plane. My rational is a psychological one - ie my wife doesn't go psycho when she sees my rental costs! Ak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozfergie Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I am trying to get a syndicate off the ground ex-Camden and from my calcs. you are better off owning if hrs. flown are more than about 6.25 per. month. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 For your budget I would choose a really nice C172 or a PA28-180 (either will have 3000-5000 hours on it) or a much younger J230/430. Cost are similar except for better fuel consumption in the Jab. I went through the same analysis and chose the Piper because I like low wings. And it can carry more load than the 172. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 There is another thread in the forums regarding renting versus buying. I won't try to duplicate that here as a simple search will lead you to that. From your two initial choices; Jabiru or Cessna, I think you have some more research to do as both those aircraft types have some form of cloud over them, however contentious those clouds may be. Also, the Cessna is definitely GA only at this stage, the Jab may be registered VH or RAA depending on the model I think. Recreational aircraft will only have two seats. If you want to carry more than 1 passenger, then it's GA for you. Recreational aircraft are generally much cheaper to maintain than GA and usually much cheaper to run, fuel-wise. If you will mostly be flying alone, but sometimes with 1 other, it would be pointless to buy a six seater and pay all the money for purchase, running and maintenance. In the long run, you might be best off going GA and renting a small two seater when that suits or a six seater when needed. However: if renting GA aircraft is anything like renting RAA planes, you'll rarely be able to just rock up somewhere and say "I want to rent a plane right now." You'll more likely have to book it in advance and let them know how long you want it for and you'll have to fit in with the other demands for their aircraft such as training and other rentals. By contrast, owning a plane gives more flexibility of when you want to fly and for how long you'll be away with the plane. HTH 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 CASA have put the cloud over Jabiru and also Cessna with the SIDS requirement. I would not be surprised to see CASA putting more impediments in the way of old cessna and Piper aircraft. Cessna brought in the requirement to inspect for corrosion, called SIDS, purely to put the cost of old planes up so they can sell new ones. CASA will go along with Cessna if they come up with any more ideas to lower the value of the old planes. I may be wrong, but bear it in mind. It is hard to put a value on old aircraft nowadays. It is even hard to put a value on not so old planes with CASA able to stuff it up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 If you look at the centre section of Cessna and Piper it is like a built up light structure (Cessna) versus a bl@@dy great girder ( Pper). That is not to criticise Cessna, it does the job it was designed for, but it is a reason not to be concerned about an equivalent SIDS for Piper. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba jenny Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I'm low hours myself but with lower budget than you. I own a Jabiru lsa (the smallest of them). Quite high airframe hours, but very low purchase cost for these type of aircraft. Mine is ex flying school, in good overall condition. I think the J170 or J230 would be a more practical aircraft, more load / fuel capabilities, still excellent fuel figures, and there are courses run by Jabiru to learn to do your owm maintenance. By the way, Jabiru are an excellent company to deal with, all my qeuries have been handled very efficiently. By something cheapish first, you can always upgrade when you know more about what useage you'll get from it. Good luck in the search☺ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toestub Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Thanks for the replies so far guys. I understand renting as required has it's benefits, but also I like the idea of when I want to fly it and the conditions are right I will head to the field and get on with the pre-flight. My learning thus far has been somewhat slowed by availability of aircraft/instructor among other factors, I wish to avoid other peoples decisions/availability when I wish to fly. The weather is always going to have the final say, I accept that, I wish to take control of the factors that I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Toestub I was told a number of years ago if you want to own an aeroplane you need the money to buy it plus the same amount again in the bank to run it. While it is not quite that bad it is not far from the truth. My opinion, if you are two(2) pax most of the time the most versatile aircraft is the J230 (I own one) cost me 75k and I have spent about 25k in maintenance over the 1000 hrs that I have done. On top of that this last 12 months I have spent 48k in GA hire plus 60k in GA charter those numbers are starting to make it worthwhile buying myself a Bonanza, bear in mind I have done close to 400 hrs myself and 50 hrs charter in the last 12 months and I'm able to claim all as a business expense. Remember when you are buying an aircraft what you pay for it will be a good indicator as to what you will have to spend on it in the first couple of years. A pretty good 172 will cost you around 80k, a good 182 will be somewhere around 130k, an RG 182 will be around 150k, a good J230 will be around 70k. The 172 ( really only a 3 seat aircraft even though it has 4) will use between 35 and 40 litres per hour (70 - 80 dollars) and cruise at around 110 kts maintenance will be about 2500-3000 every 100 hrs or every year whichever comes first. The 182 (real 4 seat aircraft) will use between 56 and 60 litres per hour (112-120 dollars) cruise at about 125 kts, maintenance will be about 3000 every 100 hrs or yearly whichever comes first. The RG 182 (real 4 seat aircraft) will use the same fuel as the 182 and cruise at 145kts, maintenance will be about 3-4K every 100 hrs or yearly which ever comes first. The J230 (2 seat with lots of luggage and full fuel) assuming you and your wife are not 100kg each, 26 litres per hour ($52) cruise 125 kts If you are looking at 6 seat aircraft starting price for a good one is close to 200k All speeds I have used are TAS, if you want your aircraft to last and be very reliable don't do your own maintenance have a LAME do it for you but find a good one. As I said my opinion only take it with a grain of salt but I do more hours than most private pilots. Aldo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 You'll more likely have to book it in advance and let them know how long you want it for and you'll have to fit in with the other demands for their aircraft such as training and other rentals. By contrast, owning a plane gives more flexibility of when you want to fly and for how long you'll be away with the plane This statement is the main reason - do what you want when you want and when the weather suits you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toestub Posted January 29, 2016 Author Share Posted January 29, 2016 Thanks Aldo, You have broken it down very nicely for me. I like the Jabs for their low cost, the only one Pax is a bit limiting. My family consists of Me, Wife, 10, 9 and baby. Wife is all about being royal family so she isn't hopping into plane yet with baby until I have much more experience and baby is a tad more reliable for longer trips (gotta love a well timed nappy). That pretty much leaves me and the other 2 kids as the payload. My personal thoughts are maybe the 230 or 172 are a realistic option for the next 5 years given I will be mostly flying myself, weekends kids might want to come up. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Watch corrosion in some Pipers. There was a period where they were not well treated. This applies to Cessna's too but the best are based on the seaplane 180 series. Really good C-182 isn't a bad thing but you are going up in costs for servicing. Having your own hangar is nice to avoid hangar rash. Planes are not CHEAP to own. If you were in a good syndicate with a Bonanza or Debonair, that might be nice, but don't bend it. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diesel Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Dont overlook the Good wood. Jodel must be the best bang for buck Some excellent ones in Aus. Of course I am biast. Been flying just on 50 yrs and thats the one I choose...WWW.jodel.com Chas 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooks Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 If looking at two-seaters, would an Evektor Sportstar be any good? Good on fuel, cheaper to maintain and very nice to fly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 If you look at the centre section of Cessna and Piper it is like a built up light structure (Cessna) versus a bl@@dy great girder ( Pper). Piper has the "girder" because it needs the meat for its cantilever structure. Which has higher stress per G? Comparison wrt ageing is more about fatigue life and corrosion.Have you seen the life limit on the wing of one variant of the PA-28 (from memory, it was a CASA requirement so I'm assuming it still exists). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooks Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Watch corrosion in some Pipers. There was a period where they were not well treated. This applies to Cessna's too but the best are based on the seaplane 180 series. Really good C-182 isn't a bad thing but you are going up in costs for servicing. Having your own hangar is nice to avoid hangar rash. Planes are not CHEAP to own. If you were in a good syndicate with a Bonanza or Debonair, that might be nice, but don't bend it. Nev Do you get the French Reims Cessna in Oz? (F-152) I believe they were corrosion proofed at the factory unlike those manufactured in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I have seen the odd Reims 150. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 If your not going to maintain yourself, and happy to go PPL, then used J430 or even a J400 are good value Higher mtow, quick and back is excellwnt for kids For $20K fit a CAE engine and its a great aircraft all round. Not being ablw to maintain myslf is only reason Im not running that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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