storchy neil Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 had a gut full off skilled pilot dying who has told you that the builder off your plane does not have to comply with rotax installation manual re fuel lines or any other item planes that do not have return lines to tank grounded planes that do not have fuel pressure gauge grounded should your plane not comply with the manafactures installation manual grounded no one in Australia has the aurthority to alter rotax installation manual prove me wrong both casa and raaus are negelent in this regard neil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Interesting. I have flown in excess of 15 different aircraft over the last 18 months. More than 10 of them were LSA's. I have not seen a fuel pressure gauge. I haven't seen in the Rotax instalation the requirement for a fuel pressure gauge. Not saying it is not there, just that I have not noticed it and I have read the manual. I certainly found the part about the fuel return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted February 18, 2016 Author Share Posted February 18, 2016 get new glasses rotax 912 1997 manual installation of rotax 912 power plant return line to right hand tank BRP rotax 912 2012 installation manual for rotax 912 B R P power plant return line to tank with a none return valve page number 1 to 10 item number 73-00-00 there has never been an ad to change this neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 get new glasses No need for the attitude mate. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted February 18, 2016 Author Share Posted February 18, 2016 yes robbo I do have attitude on this matter when it is stated that they have read said manual I have given said person here where to find said doc about time I started naming planes and here is my address Neil Bradley 7 stevens crs Mooroopna 3629 phone 0419202665 just in case some want to push the button further note first line neil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 here is my address Mooroopna Woo-Hoo, half my blood comes from Mill St, Mooroopna! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted February 18, 2016 Author Share Posted February 18, 2016 berx I :thumb up:wont hold that against you neil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 yes robbo I do have attitude on this matter when it is stated that they have read said manualI have given said person here where to find said doc about time I started naming planes and here is my address Neil Bradley 7 stevens crs Mooroopna 3629 phone 0419202665 just in case some want to push the button further note first line neil Before you go on the attack, maybe YOU should get new glasses. Geoff's post said he hadn't see the requirement for a fuel PRESSURE GAUGE, but you flew off the handle about RETURN LINES at him. AND he explicitly said he had seen the part about return lines. Get a grip storchy. Edit: I upcased the relevant lines so that hopefully they're big enough for you to see until you get some glasses. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted February 18, 2016 Author Share Posted February 18, 2016 cscotthendry like I said persons that half read directions not noticed it and I have read the manual so he has not read the manual:please: neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 get new glassesrotax 912 1997 manual installation of rotax 912 power plant return line to right hand tank BRP rotax 912 2012 installation manual for rotax 912 B R P power plant return line to tank with a none return valve page number 1 to 10 item number 73-00-00 there has never been an ad to change this neil Neil. I can see you are passionate about this so I shall ignore your apparent rudness. You may have seen my post as questioning your comments, I was in fact questioning my own understanding of the manual. From my reading of the following a fuel pressure gauge need not be fitted and from further read of the same cahapter a fuel pressure gauge should (not must) be fitted if the Rotax distribution manifold is not used. That is the 4 way distributor manifold with the restricted oriface in the return outlet. It does go on to say fuel pressure should be tested to be within the upper and lower limits. From the reference you quoted above, from page 3. "Depending on the configuration of the engine the fuel lines from fuel pump to the carburetors are already installed by the manufacturer (optional on some engine). Only the following connections per Fig. 2 have to be established: - Feeding lines to suction side of the mechanical fuel pump (5). - Lines from pressure side of the mechanical fuel pump to inlet of fuel manifold (6). - Returnline from fuel pressure control to fuel tank. P.S. I do wear glasses and have had my eyes tested quite recently, that does not however mean that I correctly understand everything I read. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimG Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Not wanting to disregard the importance of following the rotax installation manual . How many skilled pilots have died as a direct result manufacturers not follow the installation manual . Just asking.? Jim G 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Not sure about the last few words, but quite a few have cracked up aircraft due to obvious things like flooded carbys and even incorrectly installed spark plugs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cscotthendry Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 cscotthendry like I said persons that half read directions not noticed it and I have read the manual so he has not read the manual:please:neil Yeah, well like I said, persons that only half read other peoples' posts and fly off the handle half-cocked:please: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Woo-Hoo, half my blood comes from Mill St, Mooroopna! Explains a lot! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Chill out guys . Neil has been around for a long time . It's his style . Don't take it personally. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Chill out guys . Neil has been around for a long time . It's his style . Don't take it personally. Nev Yep. A lame attempt at humour on my part. No offence meant to either Neil or Bex. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 yeh guys and girls I am very bloody touchy on that particular item as even bert flood (rip) and I had a very robust discussion about the situation off fuel lines and installation off said item it was at the last natfly he attended at Narowmine bert had to agree the rotax installation manual must be followed I have said before that the pressure off 4 bars all is fine on three occasions that I witnessed fuel pressure at 7 bars on other occasions I had what a lot off pilots would say was icing was it icing or was the fuel pressure above above 6 bars when I started to look at fuel pressure gauge every time that I had icing it was reading 6 to 7 bars so without pressure gauge:wtf:? replacement off needle and seat plus float did not fix the problem off fuel smell in cockpit the flight manual for this plane stated that you used right hand tank on take off after 20 minutes switch on left tank because off the return line returned the excess fuel to right hand tank there was no return line to right hand tank how did the excess fuel get back to tank ? so the experts at CASA told me that recreational planes do not have return line the next expert at CASA told me to look up the regs I did then went to CASA regs clearly in their regs it is stated that the installation manual must be followed so raaus must have a dispensation from CASA to allow aircraft that do not comply with rotax installation manuals to be flown How many skilled pilots have died as a direct result manufacturers not follow the installation manual . Just asking.? yes jimg well assuming that this has never been looked at as a cause or even considered I now am trying and get the information was the rotax motor installed correctly to spec neil ps how many air craft do comply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozbear Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Just on this the Foxbat A22LS no longer use the return to the tank We have a Foxbat on floats and is a dark blue and sitting in the central west summer sun suffered from vapour lock this season on high power mid day flights 2 up Cured by cold water poured on the fuel system temporarily. Some older foxbat A22 returned fuel to 1 tank which helps cooling of the system and dispelling vapour later a22L return the fuel to the gascolater which is near the oil tank in my opinion not as good at cooling the fuel so is the idea to help cool the fuel or get rid of the vapour or both. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 For what it's worth, the RV-12 has a return fuel line. rgmwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimG Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I think I read somewhere that fuel pressure from an engine driven mechanical fuel pump in governed by the diaphragm return spring. A fuel pressure of 4 bar spiking to 6-7 bar would equal to 59.7 psi spiking to 89.4 - 104.3 psi. I,ve been in a Foxbat that has a fuel pressure gauge and it reads a constant 5 psi which would equal .34 bar, although I can't say if it has a fuel return line or not. Maybe Neil is meaning .4 bar cheers JimG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Float carburetters are a bit of an abomination and fuel pressure is critical. (Not too high.) The recent (relatively) problem with the floats becoming fuel soaked and sinking (Bing CV types) is pretty serious . As stated the return fuel flow cools the fuel in the lines, mainly near the engine, but requires fuel management attention when tanks near full particularly. If fuel temp gets high in the float chamber it may bubble, like when you release the cap off a beer and the density of the fuel is lowered, and the float sinks and the engine floods. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Neil has been here almost from when this site started and he is very passionate about this due to a personal experience. The thing about Neil is he is always the first in line to extend a hand to anyone who needs help. We have been friends for many years so I, and like Nev, know how to interprete his posts which are not always clear...sorry Neil but you know me and I mean no disrespect, but I say this for others to understand 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Float carburetters are a bit of an abomination and fuel pressure is critical. (Not too high.) The recent (relatively) problem with the floats becoming fuel soaked and sinking (Bing CV types) is pretty serious . As stated the return fuel flow cools the fuel in the lines, mainly near the engine, but requires fuel management attention when tanks near full particularly. If fuel temp gets high in the float chamber it may bubble, like when you release the cap off a beer and the density of the fuel is lowered, and the float sinks and the engine floods. Nev I spent a lot of years managing multiple Mikuni racing carbys, which are not unlike Bing. Had several floats absorb fuel and sink, and there is an obvious sign of flooding and overflow when the fuel is turned on, so that's an easy one to manage during the pre-flight. I always checked the float level between races with a vernier gauge, as Mikuni recommended. (Take the bowl off, turn the carby upside down, measure from the carb body datum point to the top of the float (with the needle valve in) Interesting comment of yours re the fuel temp and aeration, and that may be the reason for Storchy's insistence on return line AND pressure being managed by the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 The flooding won't be obvious on a preflight as the conditions for it are not present. Ie requires Fuel pump(s) on and /or high temps in relevent places. I'm inclined to go along with a fuel pressure gauge, being an essential item .particularly with a low located fuel tank. How else does one check fuel pump(s) working. It's also a basic element of fuel system management, in some systems. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 Maybe Neil is meaning .4 bar sorry no jimG I mean 6 to 7 bar no point before the 6 or 7 yes you are right in your spiking figures yes some off you are starting to hear me at 89.4 to 104 .3 psi in the old scale to high for this black duck what is the burst pressure of fuel line where does excess fuel go from what I am hearing Foxbat do not have back up electric pump why ?neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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