stall practice: what can go wrong?

[dsam]

Ok.....topic is headed in part " what can go wrong "Slow turn onto base ( let's say 45kts ) ...just under stall specs....turning tightish, when and what are the demons about to kick in....

 

Just asking.....

Disclaimer: I'm not an instructor, just a wary pilot. Best if you discuss all this with your instructor or your local CFI.. I'll give you my explanation, but many more on this forum are better qualified to respond.

Stall speed (wings level) is much slower than at a significant bank... first issue (lesson: keep bank angles gentle and airspeed according to POH for finals)

 

Student overshoots base & makes late turn to final and tries to correct with excessive rudder.. result un-coordinated turn (again, further loss of lift & increased drag, further slowing airspeed) Lesson: keep circuit turns modest, accurate, and coordinated. If you muck it up, apply power, go around and try again... don't "fudge" it with heavy un-coordinated rudder use.

 

Surprise outcome of getting this wrong: upper wing drops suddenly at turn to final, and stall-spin scenario begins. On final, there's no remaining altitude to effect a recovery, even with the correct control inputs.

 

So in summary, keep airspeed up (in accordance with POH), and bank angles modest with turns coordinated, and you will live much longer.

 

Any real instructors out there are welcome to expand & correct my description above...

 

Happy flying,

 

Dave

 

 

[Oscar]

UPPER wing drops? Surely, you mean in-turn wing drops?

 

 

[dsam]

UPPER wing drops? Surely, you mean in-turn wing drops?

Ooops, correct. In the scenario I described tightening with excessive rudder and insufficient bank can result in a skidding stall, and yes, in-turn wing drops. For a slipping turn stall, the upper wing drops. My mistake... See, that's why I invited comment and correction.

 

 

[facthunter]

You were just testing whether they were paying attention, dsam.

 

In a turn you will need more lift equals more drag, and unless you want to reduce your airspeed, (unlikely) you must add power or lower the nose and descend. (Lose potential energy eg height). The steeper the bank angle the more speed you need to maintain a safe manoeuvering speed to protect your stall margin.. This is all basic stuff but often the cause of the problem which is often the result of looking outside at where you are trying to go, having overshot the runway centreline on a base turn onto final, for example. Nev

 

 

[SSCBD]

Again Instead of answering this question or by the forum of which you may get some out of left field answers or confusion or typos. go see a CFI in GA and get some stall spin training. Yes and a well trained Spin CFI and plane that is spin-able.

 

Learn in real time and find out the different ways it enters.

 

Especially slow banking turns OR SUDDEN banking turns low speed. Just like an engine failure after takeoff.

 

It should then cure you for life on turn backs to a strip, to start with on engine failure.

 

'''''Highly recommended for any RAA pilot that has not done real spins in GA. DO IT, not the kindergarten stuff in RAA''''''.

 

Then you will get a healthy respect of what you are asking, as its only words here - Its not real till you "See and Feel" the earth rotate in front of your face - understand.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Recovery......level wings...lower nose, ease on power. ( works for me ) this

" spinning " thing was never included in my training ( in a jab )

 

So.....is " spinning " in a jab a non event ??

Just thought I would quote this Russ as I do it a bit differently.

 

In our standard straight and level stall practice (which seems to me to be the least likely stalling scenario but I guess that is irrelevant) I lower the nose or release the back pressure on the stick first and only once the wings are unstalled do I level the wings.

 

I guess you just mistook the sequence but in my plane trying to level the wings while stalled could get exciting pretty quickly.

 

 

[Russ]

Thanks guys, appreciating the posts here.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Ok.....in me trusty 160, raise nose, wait wait wait, airspeed drops away away, and there I am, just sort of mushy mushy....and that's it. So.....when does the next reaction kick in.....wing drop / spin etc etc.Recovery......level wings...lower nose, ease on power. ( works for me ) this

" spinning " thing was never included in my training ( in a jab )

 

So.....is " spinning " in a jab a non event ??

Russ, kick in a boot full of rudder (i.e. unbalanced ) and you will achieve a different result in your 160.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Russ, kick in a boot full of rudder (i.e. unbalanced ) and you will achieve a different result in your 160.

Frank this is irresponsible post - you are telling guys things that could cause an event!!! and they would not do normally. You don't know their training level or if they stuff it up whos to help them recover. What position have you put them in by your post. Many people have problems with stalls, let alone spins or spin entry.

 

 

[Russ]

It's ok SS......I and others reading frank here, ( well I am ) frank is saying

 

........if I booted in a """"""""""" then things will go pearshaped. So....I'm not going to venture there.

 

 

[djpacro]

When a plane stalls or spins in the real world it won't be like the "prepared and set up" one you do as described. Nev

Exactly, an inadvertent spin even surprises hotshot aerobatic pilots - seems that we lose one about every year or two, mainly from spins.

[cooperplace]

thanks everyone for the replies, what I'm getting from this is some GA spin practice is a good thing. I'll speak to my instructor about this. Meantime, I'll watch airspeed closely, fly co-ordinated, and be especially careful base to final. Actually I've already been doing all these things, but now even more so.

 

 

[facthunter]

Interesting, DJP. I thought you guys were in and out of "flick" rolls all the time, and would react quickly and catch it. Unless in the bad height zone and attitude. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

Many years ago I was flying to an airshow in a Pitts. On the way I decided to practice my new favourite manoeuvre - a "gentle" tumble. I didn't catch the recovery and it entered a spin. No worries, applied normal recovery controls but it kept spinning .... Lucky I was much higher than my display height.

 

Brian Lecomber had a similar experience at http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/lecombers-spin.22260/

 

 

[Russ]

Scinareo 2..... On late finals, above strip, 2m off the deck, holding high nose, why ???, stall warning going off, I keep high nose, why??

 

Will she nose over and plough nose wheel into the deck, or just dump me nose high or......sink to ground. ( ground effect kicking in here somewhere.)

 

Disclaimer......have tried non of the above......just asking.

 

 

[Oscar]

Russ - you need to go fly some gliders - seriously. I am crap at powered aircraft landings - I arrive over the fence fine, but then try to get the thing on the ground as short as possible, from glider experience, and it doesn't translate well.

 

BUT: when you have no engine to modify the approach, you focus on being always in the circuit at about 45 degrees angle of declination to the threshold. You DON'T worry about hitting 'turning points' in the circuit and using power to compensate for being too low, or reduce power to compensate for being too high. You use the brakes to wash off excess kinetic energy..at the last moments. You keep height in hand, and waste it through sideslip when it is absolutely redundant.

 

When all that training comes into play, is when you have to outland on a patch of ground you have never used before. When the lift dies unexpectedly, you select a field, and you HAVE to land on it. There are NO markers - other than a fence line. You select a 'target' arrival point, and the concept of flying a standard circuit is complete pants: you fly whatever pattern 'gets you to the Church on Time.'..

 

IMHO, the 'standard circuit' is a convention introduced to ensure that a sky full of aircraft don't collide. I flew as a passenger with a family member as pilot, from Mittagong Strip into Bankstown quite a bit in the late '60's - and in foggy days, he would track down the George's River at well less than 400 feet, under the fog, turn left, and land on a taxi strip. The Tower ignored him until some CFI's of FTOs on the strip complained that their students were starting to consider that the main strips were optional..

 

 

[SSCBD]

Russ are you learning to fly and with an instructor ? This is basic student stuff. You sound like you have read some books and just stared training? Please confirm.

 

 

[facthunter]

The nose doesn't usually drop unless you pole forward. If you hang it up in the air you may get one wing dropping first. If you are lucky it will just sink wings level. Ground effect is there, moreso in a low wing plane, to help a bit. It may bounce depending on the style of undercarriage.(undamped). and that could cause an ongoing problem if you can't coordinate it. You should consider a go around at the first bounce if you are nor practiced at effective bounce recovery and have the room to play with it. Nev

 

 

[Russ]

It's ok SS.....my get offs, and get ons, are seriously good. Due to " interesting" strips we've encountered, I've developed suited techniques.....alls good.

 

Was just putting out there, prev post........what happens when.....

 

My training, did not venture there, in any way. ( I think )

 

Coming from a Rotory wing background, one can "explore" things, and abort if necessary......pushing the envelope in fixed wing I'm not comfortable exploring, hence, asking peers here.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some people don't do many bad landings and consequently don't get many opportunities to practice recoveries. The instructor gets the practice when things require a rabbit out of the hat. You certainly learn fast when you are a brand new instructor. Things happen that you can't believe anyone would do in a plane, and you have to let people go to the extreme before interfering, as it has to be obvious that things are going pear shaped. Nev

 

 

[Russ]

Correct Neville......landing training was setting up the profiles, and all falls in place. Never was a messy landing encountered, that required intervention. I must've been lucky.

 

It was at my insistance at the latter time in training, that we flew in good blustery x winds, I wanted hands on.

 

My general observations.....students are trained mornings...generally, and conditions are user friendly then. Encountering adverse conditions and getting "trained" is more often than not......self taught, when you are soloing about in your pride and joy.

 

Mid day, getting bashed about, should be in the training regime....just saying.

 

 

[Russ]

My earlier post re .....holding off slow as poss etc etc. Stems from an experience last yr, we departed Burketown knowing my RH tyre was going flat, ( town was shutdown, pub hol ) ......its around 4 hr flite time to home strip, I knew i'de arrive with it dead flat. Decision....land slow as poss, and far LHS of strip....thank Christ I did.

 

So......asking here....if I slowed to crazy slow, hold it off, hold it off,

 

what happens. This is not in "training" .

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Russ. My standard landing is hold it off, hold it off, hold it off for as long as possible. As long as you are within a foot or two above the ground what can go wrong? If you are not doing that for a normal landing you are landing too fast. The slower you touch down the less energy your aircraft has to cause mischief.

 

 

[Russ]

Thanks Hap.....alls good, that's a good " normal" landing, what I was putting out there.....if one holds off, with seriously high attitude , seeking walking pace roll ( absolute minimum roll ) ....what happens ( orig post )

 

Have experimented a few times, stall warning going off foot or 2 off the deck, but ground roll is still fairly quick.

 

( seeking the ultimate touchdown......zero roll, ie...gyros ) ..dream on

 

 

[Fishla]

Your ultimate touchdown would be into a steady strong headwind on a very cold day with a high pressure system over the airfield.

 

Antarctica would be a good bet for the conditions required.