Jaba-who Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Well, at 2006 they were gearing up to 90 engines a month, and Ian had just invested to make that happen. I wouldn't blame him if he would dismiss a request to change to a different process just after he just plunked a couple million into CNC gear. Maybe they even had contractual agreements. If I was in Ian's position, I wouldn't want to make huge investments for my single customer without some commitment either. According to Rod's letter and this was also told to me about ten years ago , they did not put the pressure on Ian to increase the investment -the way Rod tells it they actively discouraged him to increase his debt. but he did so anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scsirob Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 According to Rod's letter and this was also told to me about ten years ago , they did not put the pressure on Ian to increase the investment -the way Rod tells it they actively discouraged him to increase his debt. but he did so anyway. Could both be true. Rod may have adviced Ian against going into debt and outsource instead, but in the end someone will need to buy the bl**dy machines and do the work. It would just mean someone else holding the stick. Ian may have had a moment of grandure and gambled. Not many people saw the WFC coming, and chosing between outsourcing and taking 5% margin, or investing and taking 25% with 5 years ROI @ 50 engines per month or so may have been a safe decision at the time. Things have changed dramatically. Benefit of hindsight is 20/20. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Oscar . the engines I refer to are for nitro RAILS. They graduated from car derived engines to full V8 alloy blocks with no coolant. Made in South Australia I think from memory. I also have a good mate who was making his own complete Vee Twin and selling them in the USA till a few years ago specifically for drag bikes (nitro also). Pretty competitive market. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Nev - didn't 'Grumpy' (Don Garlits, IF I remember properly) run a drag engine with liquid sodium cooling in a virtually solid block about 30 years ago? Solid is ok for 6 seconds or so...Not really enough time to get you to turn-back, even with a vertical climb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I like the "idea" of reviving it but think about it. The jabiru aircraft, well wounded by CASA as well as other factors is using another motor in the new planes. It's unlikely to be totally bad but some engines should be totally back to the drawing board rather than make them critical in more aspects than originally. That cement loctite is nearly impossible to remove, and if an engine needs glue to stabilise it there's something still wrong. Strict tolerances are admirable, but a lot of mainbearing caps in other designs are stepped into the block and even have an extra bolt from each side into the caps. Enormous cycling loads mean any cramping forces that fail to retain the fits means rapid damage and fretting, and it's over. Just one flat face relying on a few dowels, might be OK while it's ok.. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Oscar I find the idea of no coolant weird but the time involved doesn't warrant it. 6 seconds is only about 500 actual turns of the engine. it's not related to flying except the quality and strength is at the limit of metallurgy. One of the problems with an aero engine is it has to be as light as possible commensurate with reliability, so you sort of lighten them down till they are not quite reliable, almost. That's why they are pretty useless in anything else, though a Centurion tank used a version of a Merlin. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee258 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Interesting reading for those of us who are new to this topic. I would be interested to read a similar history from CAMit. There are always two sides to a story and a lot goes on behind the scenes and we never understand the logic of some big decisions . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planedriver Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 It is progressing.... s l o w l y... Got an hour yesterday to rivet up the last 2 flaperon skeletons, so another couple of hours and they should be done. That's great mate, keep at it. I'm as keen to see the product of your efforts as i'm sure you are. Kind Rgds Planey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Quite, quite incorrect.In an surface-to air transfer situation with forced air induction giving high airspeed, a rough ( i.e. cast) surface will produce a deep laminar flow area and negate the rate of heat transfer. 'Eddy heat transfer' is a complete furphy in the case of surface-to-air heat transfer.. Not me you're arguing against, it's physics and you only have to Google it. I was also taught by Yamaha about this for their racing program in the 1970's. Fact is this thread and similar ones even exist because of Jabiru's quite apparent incompetence in this area, you know, the company who's engines after 20+ years and 4 iterations still overheat, possibly you should consider looking elsewhere for knowledge on the subject, just saying. It doesn't have to be rough cast. The point it Highly polished aluminium is not a good radiator of heat. Nev Yamaha's rule was 'as cast' for racing, and if customer wanted an improved look then sand blasted, but not bead blasted, was approved, but yes, never ever polish. Oscar I find the idea of no coolant weird but the time involved doesn't warrant it. The alcohol and nitro fuels keep it all cool. Enormous cycling loads mean any cramping forces... Do you have Japanese heritage Nev? I agree that one problem with Jab cases is the lack of smaller, securing bolts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I found, on an engine I am rebuilding, that the rust build-up and flaking silver paint effectively blocked some cool fins on all of the cylinders. I had the cylinders basted ( fine garnet) to clear the rubbish and painted them. "Wattyl" Industrial etch primer sticks to a clean surface like glue. Great improvement over factory silver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaba-who Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 A bit tongue-in-cheek, but perhaps set up a crowd fund action? Sell certificates? There's 7000 engines out there. If each owner invests $500 then you have $3.5M to restart the business. Certificate owners get maintenance parts at 25% discount. I doubt there are 7000 either still in use or being used by people or entities that would contribute or are just going to replace them or even repair them if they fail. A lot got used in drones in the Middle East I believe. Then there are all the early ones that are probably replaced already. and probably some users who will be willing to junk theirs when it dies and move on to something else. Probably quite a lot of jabs or other airframes in sheds just collecting dust as well. So from a consumer cohort I would doubt very much there would be more than a few thousand potential customers for parts for the old engines. Jabiru appear to have sorted out their sources for the future so they will not be a customer. I get the feeling it's likely to be a constantly contracting market into the future. . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetboy Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Interesting reading for those of us who are new to this topic. I would be interested to read a similar history from CAMit. There are always two sides to a story and a lot goes on behind the scenes and we never understand the logic of some big decisions . There are actually 3 sides to the story to recap, here is the CASA side of the story Luckily so far no other Aviation Authority in the world has taken notice of the CASA actions if they had, the export of engines may have shrunk a lot quicker than it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scsirob Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Not want to digress too far from the main subject, but Rotec just posted a new video on Youtube. Rather than the previous ones showing off their latest and greates accomplishment, this one is more like a commercial. "We have all these engines in stock, come and get them...". What message does that send? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 A gaggle of Fokker Tri motor replicas would help that. Things are probably slow. After what CASA did for Jabiru and the "talk" of one "failure" in 10,000 hours being an acceptable failure rate (totally absurd). What engine builder would feel confident?. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I can confirm as of a few minutes ago there will be no rescue....The receiver has engaged Grays auctions to sell off the equipment. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Spare parts can always be made provided someone has all the cam files. Then parts can be made anywhere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Yes liquidators are working out whats there, this was the case for couple of weeks so decision was made some time earlier. Its a long detailed process before things are actually sold. People interested in parts should combine efforts to ensure they don't disappear or become too expensive. Unlikely they will be sold off individually PM me if theres things you may be interested in and we can maybe form buying group. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Spare parts can always be made provided someone has all the cam files. Then parts can be made anywhere Mark: quite correct for the physical parts, but you need to factor in that the QA systems must meet standards ( ASTM or certification mandated) - for Jabiru certificated engines (mostly the 2200C), to be acceptable. For aero engines (or airframe parts, for that matter), the QA is quite extensive, starting with the release certificates for the raw materials. If I had a copy of the CAM files for - say - Jabiru rods, I could take it to my local CAM-capable workshop. and they could make up a part that was in every physically measurable respect, identical to OEM. BUT: it would not be an acceptable part unless it could prove the total QA chain. If I substituted it in my engine and the engine failed and there was a crash which left third-party injuries - my insurance would (correctly) refuse me coverage. It's precisely this reason that - for instance - you do not substitute AN bolts with allegedly equal-spec bolts from Bunnings (which I am sure you would never do!). Example: I have a 'Proudly Australian Made' air compressor - Peerless brand. They don't mention that it has a Chinese-sourced compressor.. Ran less than 20 hours before being unable to deliver more than around 35 psi. Went looking for the problem: the 1/4" UNC head bolts - marked as Grade 8 - pulled their threads at around 4 ft/lb. Cheese quality. Replaced them with reliable Grade 8s torqued to about 12t/lbs and immediately it went to 110 psi no problems. Have several thousand hours on it now with no problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I have a 'Proudly Australian Made' air compressor - Peerless brand. They don't mention that it has a Chinese-sourced compressor.. Ran less than 20 hours before being unable to deliver more than around 35 psi. Went looking for the problem: the 1/4" UNC head bolts - marked as Grade 8 - pulled their threads at around 4 ft/lb. Cheese quality. Replaced them with reliable Grade 8s torqued to about 12t/lbs and immediately it went to 110 psi no problems. Have several thousand hours on it now with no problems. Hope this is all my Toolex needs to bring it around! It has only riveted one airframe and now I can't get 40psi to spray paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Spare parts can always be made provided someone has all the cam files. Then parts can be made anywhere That would be easiest but it's not rocket science to copy, Rotec is an example. Interestingly a well known crankshaft guy in Oz has some interest in me getting some cranks forged for him here, he has the dies but no one in Oz to actually do the forging, what a sad state of affairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planedriver Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Soon to be known as "The Unlucky Country" the way things are going with manufacturing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Off topic - but: if it's a Chinese compressor, the two areas to check are the valve 'petals' in the compressor head and the head bolts. Typically, Chinese stuff is actually good design and manufacture, let down by some bugger in the manufacturing plant trying to save a few cents by substituting crap parts. I will happily buy Chinese stuff but expect to have to work out where the 'weakest link' is and fix it - and then, I get good performance at the home handyman level. Have to admit that, for close-tolerance work, I don't go near Chinese: my mechanics tools are mostly Stahlwille and Snap-on, my measuring tools are .Mitutoyo, Starret and Moore and Wright. Good tools are a joy to work with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 That would be easiest but it's not rocket science to copy, Rotec is an example.Interestingly a well known crankshaft guy in Oz has some interest in me getting some cranks forged for him here, he has the dies but no one in Oz to actually do the forging, what a sad state of affairs. Rotec does not -AFAIK - have a CASA Production Certificate. CASA does not hand those out with Cornflakes packets. If you are happy to go with Experimental, not a problem, but if you want to train, fly into CTA, put your aircraft on the line for hire - you need a certificated /certified engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Have to admit that, for close-tolerance work, I don't go near Chinese: . What you mean to say is you don't go near cheap crap sold in Australia from any country, my tools of various Chinese brands, i.e. not "Chinese" inclusive, are just great. Waiting for the first running of a CNC lathe right now in my factory, not mine and not staying sadly. Rotec does not -AFAIK - have a CASA Production Certificate. ... If you are happy to go with Experimental, . I believe the bulk of us are interested in experimental. BTW, Jabiru have shown that "certified" doesn't stand for much. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 If you are happy to go with Experimental, not a problem, but if you want to train, fly into CTA, put your aircraft on the line for hire - you need a certificated /certified engine. My "24" rego aircraft has a 912 ULS which is the non-certified version, and I believe most "24"s are. It can be used for training and hire...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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