Old Koreelah Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 As Bex said, what's better: subsidising an industry or paying the dole to the unemployed? We don't let paedophiles get away with their crimes; retired bureaucrats and politicians should be tracked down and held to account for stuffing up this country. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I personally think getting RID of the three was a political act that will actually cost us money if you take all factors into account. Certainly there is no case for having done it in the period they did. The definition of employed is ludicrous One hour a week? Many are only part employed now. They can't borrow to purchase anything. They could be "oncall" for most of the time but never do a full week. House prices are a multiple of wages at a level way beyond anything in the past. Perhaps too much of the nations wealth is locked up in the largest houses we have ever seen here and amongst the largest in the world, carpeted and extensively landscaped, multi story Gloria Somes with 3 car garages etc.. Heavens.. Is owning such things the meaning of life.? Something you spend most of your working life paying off. Cars are relatively cheap, but people turn them over(not literally) pretty quickly and that's probably smart if you rack up miles, but that's possibly the second largest cost item for the average person considering tolls, parking, insurance, depreciation servicing. I really doubt a normal person can afford anything but a basic small car unless it's company use related and deductable. The cost of an average car is more than most pensions. Nev 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 You got me checking that 30,000 figure coljones. It was first said during the last election by the failed Liberal candidate, and I never checked it but quoted it lots. A bit lazy huh.Here's what I have found... South Australia total official figure is 55,000. To get a better estimate of unemployment, you need to double this figure since it is spin-doctored as far as they can go, I think one hour a week gets you off the statistic. So given the concentration of Newstart recipients in the industrial north of Adelaide, the 30,000 figure is not far off the reality, and possibly less than the true unemployed. But I liked your skepticism. Thanks Bruce. I pay my taxes and I am grateful that the poor are getting a bit of it rather than some scumbag politician and his/her scumbag tax dodging mates. Under/in employment stats should be broken out into categories such as under employed of which quite a few are at or below the poverty line and don't end up in the stats, those who have finished one job and on their way to another, those that are shorterm unemployed and looking for work and the long term unemployed a number of who should really be on disability pensions because it is hard to walk from Sydney to Newcastle when you have no legs. Out of all those categories there are few who could be regarded as workshy or bludgers. The people that I despise most are politicians who game unemployment to satisfy their political fantasies and those of their supporters and employers who lean on desperate job seekers by extracting punishing conditions on them aka 7-11 and their ilk. The vast majority of unemployed, workers and employers are good people and deserve our support. I was going to do a thesis on the US Presidential Electoral system - interesting, twisting, confusing and very scary. Maybe I should do it on popular myths on unemployment in Australia instead. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Are those who bought houses in Sydney years ago and are now millionaires because of the rising cost of houses really well off. They only get the million when they sell and where do they live then? Go int an old folks home at exorbitant rates. Go to Bundaberg and buy cheap, but it means a big lifestyle change. Don't forget that when they bought they would have had mortgage rates somewhere between 10 and 18 percent. The older people amongst us have lived through those high interest periods, sent their kids to school, bought houses and worked hard all their lives. But don't worry the oldies are not as hard up as some have stated here. It is possible to live a reasonable life on the pension. The government does look after health care and also dental care fairly well. The people I feel sorry for are those that have to ive in the Sydney area who are raising families and can't even afford to buy a home, even with low interest rates. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Can we please get back to the thread CAMit Closing. I am not interested in the political reasons why. More interested in what can be done to help those that have bought a CAMit engine and now have something that is no longer supported. Those who purchased helped to support a local buisiness unlike the main user of the engine who has gone offshore due price. 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 An interesting point about the sharp decline in price for dairy products globally. Remember that in the '90's the US imposed sanctions on Iraq. This included dairy products as well as medicine. The result was that 500,000 infants died. When questioned, Madeline Allbright, then Sec. of State replied that ,"It was worth it". The current decline in prices for dairy is said to be a result of US sanctions against Russia. I wonder what kind of world we live in. Sorry to be political and I really do lament the demise of Camit. I think that, for the price, these engines were good and getting better. I flew 550 hrs behind a VW and never had a problem. I tried not to fly over country where at least I would save my life if the noise stopped. Don 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreemhi Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 The answer is simple, sell the business to the Chinese, there will be cheap engines before you know it. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I have read this thread with interest. A couple of themes keep coming through. 1. It is a great product. 2. Ian is a nice guy. First to address the Great product I actually agree that Ian has addressed all the major issues with the Jab motor and come up with solutions to them. I think that in the market it was aimed at the Camit motor given time and market share may have proven itself to be a great product. But to claim that on such a small market share and with only one motor claimed to have 2000 hours (by a manufacturer trying to sell aircraft) is simply jumping the gun. Yes it appears to be a good product and given time it may have been proven to be a great one but not yet. Second Ian is a nice guy. I spoke to him several times and met him once and was given a 2 hour tour of the complete factory on the day before Christmas shutdown, so yes no argument he is a nice guy. The problem as I see it is this. We are all assuming that because they have a great product (questionable) and the owner is a nice guy they should be successful. Sorry but to succeed in business you need many things. A good product is one of them. A nice guy is certainly not. In fact to make a business succeed you really do need to have just a little bit of Mongrel in you. You need a million other things as well. A Market. Market Share. Affordable Money. Business acumen. There are so many things you need to make it work, and missing out on any one of them will without doubt put you in long term jeopardy. I have seen so many businesses fail even though the owner was a nice guy and sometime because he was. As I say to the people that I have mentored over the years, being good at your job will not make you successful in business. To be successful in business you must be good at so many things. It is sad and this is not meant as a to belittle Camits efforts, I would have bought one almost two years ago, but at the time I could not even get a delivery time frame out of them. Had they been able to supply I don't doubt that I would have had in excess of 250 hours up on one by now. As sad as I am to see another Aussie Manufacturing business fail I am wary of looking for someone outside the close circle to blame. I also see this as a great win for Jabiru and a huge loss to Jab owners. If Jabiru can bring the new motor online in a timely fashion the can corner the market. I however fear it is being rushed and as such could quite possibly be heading the way of other Jabiru motors. I guess only time will tell. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scsirob Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Can we please get back to the thread CAMit Closing. I am not interested in the political reasons why. More interested in what can be done to help those that have bought a CAMit engine and now have something that is no longer supported. Those who purchased helped to support a local buisiness unlike the main user of the engine who has gone offshore due price. Good day all. My first post here. I purchased a CAMit engine three months ago, for all the reasons quoted here before; CAMit fixed issues instead of denying the issues exist, and Ian ( but also Brydan and Jenny) are terrific people to work with. I am from Europe so I wasn't looking to support any 'local' business. I was out to get a Jabiru 3300 version 2.0 that behaves properly. Getting a latest version genuine Jabiru was no option for me, due to very unfavorable support experiences in Europe. As for parts, I am seeing good initiatives on Yahoo groups for group purchases of parts that are specific to CAMit engines. That will help. What will not help is that requests for parts to Jabiru dealers now go unanswered. Coïncidence? Perhaps. It would be really, really sad if Jabiru has instructed their dealers to keep parts from CAMit users. I'm keeping a sharp lookout for the future. Meanwhile my CAMit engine has ran beautifully for 10 hours. If it is as good and as reliable as I hope then my first parts issue will be in 990 hours from now when the first top-end is due. We'll see.. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 The answer is simple, sell the business to the Chinese, there will be cheap engines before you know it.David Little to do with any specific country's group, the problem lay in what would be on offer as a business, and the facts are very grim for an investor. If Jabiru can bring the new motor online in a timely fashion the can corner the market. I've already mentioned earlier this year that there are more engines coming, one will be likely having it's development unit running on the test bench before Xmas it looks very much like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scsirob Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 If Jabiru can bring the new motor online in a timely fashion the can corner the market. In Rod's latest message he mentioned having bought large quantities of engines to keep CAMit afloat, keeping over 360 in stock at one time. Don't known when that one time was, but presumably they have not cranked out hundreds of Jabi's since then? Rod will want to sell that existing stock before introducing the new engine for general availability. Look up "Osborne effect". That may already be happening. Meanwhile, Sue's first response mentioned that demand was down to very, very low numbers. In light of those pieces of information I would be surprised if the new Jabiru engines would come online quickly and if they'd sell like hot cakes. Even if they are perfect as of serial number 001. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 There are almost no engines in stock A few production runs over the last 12 months, most went overseas to order Large stockpile of returned exchange ones waiting rebuild 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhawk Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I heard recently that Jabiru is considering moving it's manufacturing to China and if it does, don't expect any cost reductions to flow on to the end user. If it does move to China, the manufacturing will never ever return to Aus, once they have it in their country they will take it over and once they have acquired all the knowledge they will pull the pin on Rod and send him back to Aus with nothing. Like a lot of companies who think the grass is greener in China, they eventually realise their mistake when it's too late and their flying home empty handed after the Chinese have taken all their technology for themselves. I know of many, many businesses that this has happened to, that operated in Aus very successfully but wanted to retain a bigger slice of their pie, but ended up with nothing. China wants to control all types of manufacturing throughout the world and we are supplying them with the technology and know-how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 The last remaining Australian supplier to Jabiru engines was possibly Camit Many parts imported from Asia and other places now and for some time China and other low cost production countries can do the work, just QA is sometimes poor for the reasons Bex has pointed out. It hasn't treated jabiru well. Lower grade Valves with collets that don't fit. pistons with crook grooves and circlip seats, coils, senders, wasn't there some faulty filters? Jabiru just HAVE to work out customers want good not cheap in engines. If they offered an engine with all "branded" parts that cost $2K extra, people would pay it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 There is a big change in the newer engines that Jabiru will be using. Castings bring opportunities and issues. Nikasil aluminium cylinders get over corrosion and heat conductivity problems, and permit closer piston/cylinder fits and may even reduce distortion of the cylinders. Cast crankcases. They can be OK and most are. Depends on design and quality control. Not a high volume venture so vacuum steel dies etc maybe not to be used due cost/unit realities. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 For sure, should be a good thing but fill it with cheap parts and the old problems could continue Its a new engine and will need a lot of testing Main problem is the 7000 existing engine owners out there. Emergence of a new engine means even less chance they will be supported 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Rod said that new parts will fit older engines. I'm not taking sides here, just putting up facts as I see them. Realistically, making that happen will hamstring new development eventually same as if the Jab motor kept parts to fit the KFM. Resizing older crankcases won't be economic either. That sort of thing is labour intensive. If the motor price is kept low , you will just replace it rather than reco. unless you like playing with things a lot. I'd still like to know what's happening with the flywheel. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Yes some parts will swap, not sure about solid lifter types, and in many cases where you would fit one new head or cylinder, you'll be forced to fit a full set. New heads wont fit old barrels either s going to get to new engine cost quickly. Great result for Jab. jabiru flywheel now uses nordlock spring washers to maintain clamping force instead of Loctite yet to be convinced this is a fix, an improvement maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 IF the whole "concept" works if will be a big win for Rod. The motor will be kept relatively simple (always his aim) and have some of the criticality of operation and servicing taken out of the design. I'd like to see the flywheel placed where Lycoming put it (behind the prop)and the camshaft driven from the "real" flywheel end (the front). Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhawk Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 So why didn't Rod do all this 20 years ago? 20 years of stubborn arrogance. Don't get me wrong Rod is a very nice person, but if the world is telling you there's a problem then you fix it; you don't blame others for a problem you have created. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ave8rr Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 jabiru flywheel now uses nordlock spring washers to maintain clamping force instead of Loctite yet to be convinced this is a fix, an improvement maybe Another CAMit improvement to the Jab engine Rod didn't want to take up. A Nordlock washer is cheaper! I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 The Captain steers the ship because when the buck stops it stops with him. Henry Ford didn't paint his cars anything but black earlier with the "T" model and they were good cars at a price less than a motorbike. The jabiru motor is light weight and inexpensive and simple (air cooled and direct drive). Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhawk Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 "T" model cars weren't falling out of the sky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soleair Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I've already mentioned earlier this year that there are more engines coming, one will be likely having it's development unit running on the test bench before Xmas it looks very much like. Yes, there's always a new engine coming, that's going to be the answer to everybody's prayers: cheaper, lighter, better in every way. Sadly the ratio of engines 'coming' to engines 'arrived' is very low. Words are free, and marketing hype is cheap. And even when a new engine is actually on the market, available for purchase now, with demonstrated testing & some limited field time, it still takes many years before the market will fully accept it in preference to those it knows & trusts, even if the new engine has better performance, lower weight & price, etc. This is particularly so if it embodies novel technology. Aviators as a breed are a conservative crew. So even if/when a new engine actually appears, it will take a long time to become financially viable for the manufacturer. This is the pity of Camit going under: they had already climbed a fair way up the greasy pole of customer commitment, and were steadily building a loyal market base, and becoming sufficiently established for new buyers to trust. Depending on the financial position of the late great Camit, it would seem a good opportunity for some (semi-altruistic?) engineering company to acquire. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Don't count on it. The causes of the situation have been covered fairly well for those prepared to look hard. Things are not likely to get better in the short term for the CAMit Organisation.. Might be OK if they had a market outside of Jabiru. Drones ? That's been tried but who Knows. Every day passing makes it less likely to have life breathed back into it. I'm sure Ian would have tried all possibilities he could think of. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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