bexrbetter Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 We are now stuck with circa 1940’s technology heavy fuel gobbling Lycoming & Continental types. Or expensive complex high revving Rotax with limited power. Or a few newish designs that time will only tell if these are any good. Or a handful of oddballs derived from the auto industry. Or a new offering from Jabiru that, if all the gossip and hear-say is true, is an engine cobbled up in their factory from out-sourced parts and suppliers on a cheapest bid basis made by people who potentially have no or little aviation expertise or experience. Nonsense. Jabiru is no different in tech to a Lyc or Conti. Rotax is little different either, other than superior water cooled heads and superior workmanship - and probably the most dependable aero engine in the world today who have just surpassed 50,000 units and a preferred choice by more light aircraft manufacturers than any other brand. A number of auto conversions serve people very well, especially thousands of VW's, Subarus and Suzukis and other various. Nonsensical gossip, you have no evidence at all to support your claims of "what, who and where" Jabiru are doing. To answer the question pondered by many as to why Camit couldn’t survive, my answer is simple “greed”. An engine based on a crap foundation that Camit bandaged. Icing on a turd, but still a turd. I would like to think I’m wrong, We finally agree on something. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 There's a lot of truth there Bex, otherwise why is the marketplace looking for another option like yours, Maybe your happy CAE is gone the way it has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Nonsense.Jabiru is no different in tech to a Lyc or Conti. Rotax is little different either, other than superior water cooled heads and superior workmanship - and probably the most dependable aero engine in the world today who have just surpassed 50,000 units and a preferred choice by more light aircraft manufacturers than any other brand. A number of auto conversions serve people very well, especially thousands of VW's, Subarus and Suzukis and other various. Nonsensical gossip, you have no evidence at all to support your claims of "what, who and where" Jabiru are doing. An engine based on a crap foundation that Camit bandaged. Icing on a turd, but still a turd. We finally agree on something. You appear to be blind to the obvious, let me enlighten you:- 1 – The Jabiru Camit engine was designed decades after the Lycoming / Continental that are heavier, worse in CC to BHP output, use more fuel, are significantly more expensive to buy and maintain, and the rebuild cost is higher, the facts are on data sheets - read them. I don’t dislike them, there super -reliable and pretty unburstable, and I’ve got 100+ happy hours on them, however technology has simply moved on and the market wants a light, simple, low cost aero engine. The Rotax engine is the same as the Jabiru Camit ? Er except for; it operates at high RPM, has a reduction gear, radiator, thermostats, coolant hoses, water jackets, dry sump, external oil tank, and some add- turbo chargers, electronic fuel injection and lots of electronic boxes of tricks that can go wrong - have you ever seen one? Again I don’t dislike Rotax, as stated by me previously on this forum a Rotax will engine my next aircraft – I’d rather have the simplicity and lower cost of a Camit but that option is gone. Auto engines? The key to this is AUTO. These were designed for automobiles, with gearboxes, clutches, driveshaft’s, axles, wheels, varying RPM - very rare to hold your car at 75% power for hours on end, weight not to important – cars generally don’t leave the ground, require serious modification to put them in a plane driving a propeller, and if it does break down you can’t exactly pull over in the air. We will agree to differ on this one cos I aint putting a car engine in a plane. Let me reiterate “IF THE GOSSIP AND HERE SAY IS TRUE”. This is the perception and opinion of many others on this forum, you need to read them. True or not this will hurt Jabiru. “an engine based on a crap foundation that Camit bandaged. Icing on a turd, but still a turd”, your opinion and not mine. I’m glad we agree on the last one because if I’m wrong Camit will find an investor, I will get my Camit engine and everyone else on these Jabiru / Camit forums that appear to be devastated at Camits demise will be happy. 2 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 My thoughts.... Irrespective of what involvement the bank has with the business, or even if it was owned outright with no debt, they were NOT SELLING ENGINES in the volume required to be sustainable. Perhaps the bane of many potential aero engine makers. If you can't get the sales volume, it is not going to end pretty.... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Maybe your happy CAE is gone the way it has? I would completely refute that. Having lost businesses myself, I feel very bad for them. Further, makes me angry that Australia's manufacturing slice of the GDP has gone from 30% in 1970 to 12% today and shrinking. But hey, lets talk about Gay Marriage, you know, really important stuff. 14 1 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Very damn sad. What is it with our country and manufacturing? if it doesnt involve dirt, the government of Australia simply doesnt give a shit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 The way this country is going we will have no manufacturing ability in a few years time. I put that down to our current and previous governments. The camit engine was copied off the Jab engine, with possibly improvements. camit built the Jab engine I believe. One of the reasons that the Jab engine had troubles was that so many people kept stating that they were no good and eventually CASA took notice. Just a case of the tall poppy syndrome. For those who say that I don't know what I am talking about I ask why has the supposed failure rate of Jab engines ropped so much since CASA lowered the boom. I don't think there are so much less hours being flown, just a lot less knockers always shouting their mouths off. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 There are about 20 things I want a vote for or against. Golden travel passes for retired pollies for one. Support for manufacturing is another. Gay marriage doesn't even make it on my list. 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClintonB Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Biggest shame is more jobs gone, ford Holden Toyota, what is next, all of us workers and tax payers current and past are paying for a new generation of unemployed morons with no ability to comprehend having a job and helping Australia, just how many kids they can pop out to prevent work and get tattoos to remember when it runs out to have another. (by the way people who cannot have a go are my pet hate). We keep losing people who were trying, to this bank greed, red tape and stupidly high cost of operating for business with not much return for actual hours worked-mine are up to 80hrs some weeks as are many other self operators I know. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Support for manufacturing is another. Gay marriage doesn't even make it on my list. If we don't fix it soon, EVERYBODY will suffer, that includes Gays, and every other minority group. Minority groups need to clearly understand that they get privileges and exceptions because we are a prosperous society, if that prosperity suffers so do they, we are all in this together. Biggest shame is more jobs gone, ford Holden Toyota, what is next, . Immigration will fix all of this. I read it in the paper. 1 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham brown Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Australian manufacturing has been dying for decades. The only thing we seem to make are rules now. My Camit Motor and the support I received from Ian made me proud that Australian still had some hope in the manufacturing sector. I hope someone jump starts it. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 My thoughts....Irrespective of what involvement the bank has with the business, or even if it was owned outright with no debt, they were NOT SELLING ENGINES in the volume required to be sustainable. Perhaps the bane of many potential aero engine makers. If you can't get the sales volume, it is not going to end pretty.... I agree to an extent, however there is without doubt a market for something in between the heavy large capacity expensive Lycoming / Continental types and the small capacity complex and expensive Rotax, nothing wrong with either (don’t wish to start a debate and miss the point). Camit had secured deals with two small aero manufacturers one of which gave testimony (on this forum) how good the Camit engines were reaching 2000 trouble free hours – they had installed over 100. Camit started building an independent worldwide dealer network for people like me who ordered one of their engines, and I have no doubt many more would have followed in time. The big problems they faced were time and investment, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever if Camit had restructured there business to suit reduced capacity / anticipated short term capacity, found (could still find?) an investor who was motivated by passion rather than greed and was prepared to accept a long term return (maybe provide some business input for them?) they would have, in time, eaten hard into Rotax / Continental / Lycoming’s market share. Then ventured into new markets with innovation, new products, and eventually a certified engine (Camit are creative engineer’s not heartless bankers/investors). The company would have grown and in years to come (maybe many years), they would be profitable and “force to be reckoned with” in the light aero engine market. NOTE This is my opinion. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Australian manufacturing is hampered by many things, not least being the cost of doing business. I read that Ford workers in Thailand get $6.00 per hour. It cost about $100 per hour to have a skilled worker here. AND we have such a small home market. CAMit was faced with the daunting prospect of having to export immediately to achieve enough sales to survive. I was in Rotec yesterday and the enterprise is quite small, but obviously very efficient, with an excellent product. But I bet it's still not an easy way to make money.....Maybe CAMit was too big?. When his best customer walked he had no back up.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickduncs84 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Biggest shame is more jobs gone, ford Holden Toyota, what is next, all of us workers and tax payers current and past are paying for a new generation of unemployed morons with no ability to comprehend having a job and helping Australia, just how many kids they can pop out to prevent work and get tattoos to remember when it runs out to have another. (by the way people who cannot have a go are my pet hate). We keep losing people who were trying, to this bank greed, red tape and stupidly high cost of operating for business with not much return for actual hours worked-mine are up to 80hrs some weeks as are many other self operators I know. Listen I hate to be the one that has to go against the grain, but from my view, these kind of statement are pretty silly. First of all, the whole fallacy of 'a new generation of unemployed morons is ridiculous. Unemployment now is very similar to what it was in the early 80's. The decline of manufacturing in this country certainly hasn't doomed our labour market. At the end of the day, whether we are talking about running a business or running an economy, to a certain extent it would be a lot easier if nothing ever changed and we could just keep doing what we are used to. The reality is that obviously things do change. We can't expect to be a manufacturing country and expect all of our workers to be paid $100 an hour, yet for some reason some people do. They are the ones left holding the bag when the inevitable happens. In the long run, obviously to expect the government to bail out an entire industry isn't sustainable. The issue isn't that we need to resurrect manufacturing, it's that the Government has taken far too long to embrace new industries and that's why we are currently in a very precarious position. If they put more effort into getting young people into growing industries rather than dying ones, we wouldn't have much to worry about. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Australian manufacturing has been dying for decades.The only thing we seem to make are rules now. My Camit Motor and the support I received from Ian made me proud that Australian still had some hope in the manufacturing sector. I hope someone jump starts it. For my way of thinking Australian manufacturing slid down the hill ever so quickly when this level playing field concept came to vogue. What we are forgetting Australia is on the level field and is competing with tariffs and sudsidised manufacturing. How can we survive? Only what we get here is regulations which make business hard to operate unles we put in expensive business infrastructure. KP 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Australian manufacturing is hampered by many things, not least being the cost of doing business. I read that Ford workers in Thailand get $6.00 per hour. It cost about $100 per hour to have a skilled worker here. . Wages have very little to do with costs in mass production. GMH made public their Thailand Vs Oz findings some 10 years back and it made a Commodore only some $1300 more retail to be made in Oz (when they were about $34K). Unemployment now is very similar to what it was in the early 80's. No it's not. The Gov twist the hell out of figures and now include part time, something as ridiculous as 4 hours per week, those in various funded training and even some who are being schooled as being employed. Add in moving school leaving age from year 9 or 10, to year 12 as mandatory. "Statistics, statistics and damn lies" as the saying goes. "The Australia Bureau of Statistics revealed that its measure of “extended labour force under-utilisation” — this includes “discouraged” jobseekers, the “underemployed” and those who want to start work within a month, but cannot begin immediately — was 13.1 percent in August 2012, in contrast to the “official,” and far more widely reported, unemployment rate of five percent at the time". obviously to expect the government to bail out an entire industry isn't sustainable. Works well for America, China and Germany, just as 3 examples, who also happen to be the 3 World's strongest economies. Better you give a 100 million loan than 100 million to social security benefits - that's what's not sustainable. Government has taken far too long to embrace new industries What "new industries"? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Wages have very little to do with costs in mass production. GMH made public their Thailand Vs Oz findings some 10 years back and it made a Commodore only some $1300 more retail to be made in Oz (when they were about $34K). No it's not. The Gov twist the hell out of figures and now include part time, something as ridiculous as 4 hours per week, those in various funded training and even some who are being schooled as being employed. Add in moving school leaving age from year 9 or 10, to year 12 as mandatory. "Statistics, statistics and damn lies" as the saying goes. "The Australia Bureau of Statistics revealed that its measure of “extended labour force under-utilisation” — this includes “discouraged” jobseekers, the “underemployed” and those who want to start work within a month, but cannot begin immediately — was 13.1 percent in August 2012, in contrast to the “official,” and far more widely reported, unemployment rate of five percent at the time". Works well for America, China and Germany, just as 3 examples, who also happen to be the 3 World's strongest economies. Better you give a 100 million loan than 100 million to social security benefits - that's what's not sustainable. What "new industries"? As long as the loan is for the reengineering of the local operation as opposed to immediate repatriation to the foreign owner - another way to cause a tax leakage offshore. Business should be predicated on a genuine business plan, not a wish list of handouts from the government nor a trick up for offshoring the tax to havens (which add no value, do not work and are just conduits for legal black money) 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickduncs84 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Wages have very little to do with costs in mass production. GMH made public their Thailand Vs Oz findings some 10 years back and it made a Commodore only some $1300 more retail to be made in Oz (when they were about $34K). No it's not. The Gov twist the hell out of figures and now include part time, something as ridiculous as 4 hours per week, those in various funded training and even some who are being schooled as being employed. Add in moving school leaving age from year 9 or 10, to year 12 as mandatory. "Statistics, statistics and damn lies" as the saying goes. "The Australia Bureau of Statistics revealed that its measure of “extended labour force under-utilisation” — this includes “discouraged” jobseekers, the “underemployed” and those who want to start work within a month, but cannot begin immediately — was 13.1 percent in August 2012, in contrast to the “official,” and far more widely reported, unemployment rate of five percent at the time". Works well for America, China and Germany, just as 3 examples, who also happen to be the 3 World's strongest economies. Better you give a 100 million loan than 100 million to social security benefits - that's what's not sustainable. What "new industries"? Bex, if you honestly believe what you're saying then I can't help you. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for it not to be true, but the fact is we can't be a manufacturing country with the wages and unions that we have and expect to compete with other countries. As for the questions of what new industries, well I hope that's a joke because believe it or not, there have been a few new things pop up over the last 50 years. . My industry didn't exist in the 80's for one example. Web engineers, designers, etc. There are plenty of examples where the government could have made more of an effort to embracing new technology and gearing us up for the next 50 years rather than pouring money into dying businesses to try and delay the inevitable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Bex, if you honestly believe what you're saying then I can't help you. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for it not to be true, but the fact is we can't be a manufacturing country with the wages and unions that we have and expect to compete with other countries. As for the questions of what new industries, well I hope that's a joke because believe it or not, there have been a few new things pop up over the last 50 years. . My industry didn't exist in the 80's for one example. Web engineers, designers, etc. There are plenty of examples where the government could have made more of an effort to embracing new technology and gearing us up for the next 50 years rather than pouring money into dying businesses to try and delay the inevitable. Sorry Nic, just because some overseas country funds the hell out of their industries and keeps their workers on the poverty line does not mean that we should do the same. Bex is correct with his figures. If the level playing feild was actually level, and the govt was serious about keeping industry in this country and no appeasing the pockets of shareholders at the expense of tghe australian people then maybe we could survive. Globalisation is a very good excuse for maximising profits at the expense of people. Unfortunately people dont seem to matter any more, its all about profits etc. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 The sort of figures that Bex spoke of were out there to see and were in the order of the amounts he speaks of. Australian cars could have specialised and sold overseas to niche markets that are less price sensitive. Their overseas owners dictate what will be produced here to a large extent. We have a bit of a cultural cringe about local vehicles, which are often better appreciated in places like the UK and Germany as well. With robotics the labour content of making cars isn't such a large % as it was once. Without good tooling you aren't even going to make a good car let alone a cheap one. If you drive wages down you create a working poor who won't be part of the internal economy as consumers of anything but essentials and basic ones at that, and fodder for the growing legal and incarceration industry. ALL things considered (taxes paid, support not required extra economic activity) It was a nett PLUS to subsidize the three for at least 4 years, with identifiable positive returns. I'm inclined to believe the reasons for closing them at this point were political and perhaps tied up with "FAIR??" trading deals and anti unionism. Nev 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickduncs84 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Sorry Nic, just because some overseas country funds the hell out of their industries and keeps their workers on the poverty line does not mean that we should do the same. Bex is correct with his figures. If the level playing feild was actually level, and the govt was serious about keeping industry in this country and no appeasing the pockets of shareholders at the expense of tghe australian people then maybe we could survive. Globalisation is a very good excuse for maximising profits at the expense of people. Unfortunately people dont seem to matter any more, its all about profits etc. depends on which way you look at it. it's not quite as simple as you're making it out to be. how many people are invested in these profit hungry companies via shares, super, pension funds, etc. And I'm not arguing that the high wages is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying that some people need to accept that globalisation is happening whether they like it or not and you're better off focusing on what you can control than moping around hoping for some sort of miracle that's going to wind the clock back 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 You never wind the clock back. What worked then is in response to conditions that existed then. Cars are not made like they were then. (Thank dog. Todays car's drive and perform really well) Totally different production techniques. Management is more critical. Margins are smaller. Inventories are minimised "Just in time" does that. Selected parts come from places you would not see as likely. A sight change in spec from the supplier makes a large failure if you are unlucky. The product becomes wedded to the technology available. A large % of it's design reflects the way it's able to be produced. It's made that way so you can make it more easily, perhaps at the expense of other desirable outcomes. Ie Windows are part of the structure and flush and stuck into the vehicle. High tensile steels used to reduce weight and increase stiffness, but are difficult to repair. Australia and Canada are very similar in so many ways . How does the comparison stand up? As I see it we are miles behind. There are about 22 countries in the world producing cars. Not producing them here is hard to explain. We still employ a fair number involved in the "testing and development" phase. That's better than nothing but how much better would it be if it went into an Australian product that we could identify with, and call our own. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Bex, if you honestly believe what you're saying then I can't help you. . Nothing to do with "believing", they are verifiable facts. Anyone who is over 50 knows how many people were on the dole in the 80's and how many are on welfare benefits of one type or another now or only part time work without the need to refer to any numbers, especially those in country areas. The investments into themselves by other countries are just fact, undeniable and researchable facts. I'm also living it in China where I am being supported by Government, allowing me to develop and employ. Living 20 years ago? As far as I can see there is little that was required 20 years ago that isn't still required today, and in another 20 years time, stuff that needs to be manufacturer'd, from cars to dinner plates, so I have no idea what you're on about there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinsm Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 depends on which way you look at it. it's not quite as simple as you're making it out to be. how many people are invested in these profit hungry companies via shares, super, pension funds, etc. And I'm not arguing that the high wages is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying that some people need to accept that globalisation is happening whether they like it or not and you're better off focusing on what you can control than moping around hoping for some sort of miracle that's going to wind the clock back 20 years. Nic, the excuse using globalisation is a cop out. The regulators, no matter which brand is in power, are looking after the large end of town not the people on the street. Australia was a country that had less than 5% unemployment all the time. People found work and did a great job. They were paid a fair days pay for a fair days work. Yes, the union were allowed to get away with a lot but that is being rolled back now and common sense is starting to surface. To compare a wage rate of $6 per hour is plainly ridiculous. The cost of living in this country makes the higher hourly rate essential. We see that 2 income houses are now commonplace and in some cases these are needed to afford housing etc. It is large companies wanting bigger profits, cheaper product and bigger bonuses taht drives the manufacturing overseas to poorer countries with high subsidies from Govts to manufacturers. If you are prepared to let your lifestyle disappear down the gurgler because the managing director wants a bigger car and bug..er the worker then thats fine. There is nothing wrong with profits, that is what makes the world go around but its how that profit is obtained that is the problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickduncs84 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Nothing to do with "believing", they are verifiable facts.Anyone who is over 50 knows how many people were on the dole in the 80's and how many are on welfare benefits of one type or another now or only part time work without the need to refer to any numbers, especially those in country areas. The investments into themselves by other countries are just fact, undeniable and researchable facts. I'm also living it in China where I am being supported by Government, allowing me to develop and employ. Living 20 years ago? As far as I can see there is little that was required 20 years ago that isn't still required today, and in another 20 years time, stuff that needs to be manufacturer'd, from cars to dinner plates, so I have no idea what you're on about there. Your last paragraph is missing the point by so much. Are you saying that technology hasn't created jobs and industries? You know there was a time before cars existed too. I'm sure some people used to think they weren't needed back then and that they should just focus on trains and....dinner plates for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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